Iron Gauntlet thing

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YM

LVL100 YM
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Dec 5, 2007
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The simple fact is I don't see 90% of what I wrote as rude, and I definitely don't see Leminnes' posts as rude.
Then maybe you should work on understanding how other people interpret what you say. The posts you two made were ridiculously rude. And even if I'm more sensitive to it than most (which I don't believe I am) then they'd still be rude. Either way, it's all definitely rude to woozlez, who was the intended recipient.

Raising a concern is different from outright being rude and namecalling. You could have been so much nicer about the whole thing. You raise a concern by asking for clarification.

Instead of this sneery personal attack:
This really just looks like a very transparent way to get people to make items for you so that you can lean on Valve a little harder to add your maps with this whole "community update" thing.

Why not a genuine question:
Why don't you get the whole community involved and open this up to maps as well as just items?
Or if you wanted to be more direct about the maps involved:
Did Valve say they were interested in these maps when you emailed them? If not, have you reworked and improved them since then?

Then when you get a response, you don't call them self entitled or say that you think they're incredibly arrogant or call the project digusting. Do you really think saying that is civil and isn't rude?
 

ibex

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Sep 1, 2013
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I saw McVee's SFM and subsequent update as a community update because the original intent was to make an awesome thing associated with TF2. Valve deciding to make it into an update was great, but that was Valve's agency. This Iron Gaunlet, as well as MvA, seem to be less about making an awesome thing with TF2, and more about getting money.

I feel it lacks the community, as the only reason it became a "community update" with cosmetics/etc was to get more "lean". The maps were existing and have been on the workshop, it again feels like they were only brought together as a 3-pack to get more "lean". You guys made awesome stuff and that's great for the community, but the whole Iron Gaunlet Update is kinda hurting that.

It feels like the onset of trend where people will attempt to group things together to present to Valve saying "hey, buy the community's(our) stuff".
 

YM

LVL100 YM
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That's exactly the kind of behaviour we should be encouraging as a community though.

Take something that's great (Like those three maps) and bundle them up into an appealing looking package for an update.

Valve have said that they actively want the community to do this.

This doesn't lack the community part either, I don't know where everyone is getting this idea from. There are like half a dozen people already involved in the making of those three maps, and now they're reaching out for more people to contribute. If that's not community then I guess nothing is community.

Can someone please explain to me why that last paragraph doesn't count as community? @tyler, can you?
 

fubarFX

The "raw" in "nodraw"
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Jun 1, 2009
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Can someone please explain to me why that last paragraph doesn't count as community? @tyler, can you?

I think he clearly expressed his point on that. the community part of it may have felt like an afterthought. you're just carrying this on at this point.
 

Freyja

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Jul 31, 2009
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Because we're a mapping community and we're not being given the opportunity to contribute what we do best. That's why people are getting mad. I can't say I care either way, but I can understand their point of view.
 
Dec 28, 2014
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It's really too bad this contest caused so much negativity. Yes ideally Woozlez would of posted about this long before now in an attempt to get more quality MVM maps and missions made for it, but TF2maps.net has always seemed much more focused on PVP maps then MVM and it does feel like this event is very much in response to Invasion. Invasion did show us that Valve is interested in "complete" community updates with maps and cosmetics/weapon skins, so doing an event like this does make a lot of sense for Woozlez and the other map makers who spent a long time working on those maps.

Let's not forget that big community updates like this are a pretty new thing, Invasion was the first Community made update that included maps and every attempt at making a big community update is not going to be perfect. Don't forget that we saw some in-fighting from the Invasion team so that certainly had it's share of problems

I'm not really much of an MVM fan but I know there are a lot of MVM fans out there, and I do feel bad for them that there hasn't been any new MVM content since late 2013. Assuming these maps/missions are good I do hope Valve picks this update up so MVM fans get something new.

And yes it's probably too late for any mapper here to get a map/missions included as part of this community update, but I know TF2maps.net has run an MVM contest before, maybe we should consider running another contest.
 

Woozlez

L3: Member
Jul 28, 2010
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This thread just makes me out to be the worst person in the whole world.

I already said we're accepting other maps into the collection. Alias, Snowbat, and Signalmax already know this. I did not ask for other mappers to try for it because we are supporting ACTIVE mvm map makers. Do not complain that I am not trying to gather maps from tf2maps.net, because I am instead leaving the gathering of quality maps up to the community on potato's servers. I know I can guarantee quality missions and testing there, and we already have enough maps and missions being worked on. If you want to create mvm maps, there has never been a better time with the resources we can provide. I beg you to go work on a map over there.

The only reason this whole toxic conversation is happening is because my name is on two of the maps in the project. I already explained that zorbos made MOST OF AREA 52. As such, if the map is accepted, HE WILL RECEIVE MOST OF THE MONEY FROM IT. Should I just have never let Area 52 be made then because my name taints it? Or did Zorbos and I have a great time making it this summer, and believe it to be some of our best work? On top of this, Pluto is receiving a sizable chunk of Underground for his work on the missions for it. - Same with Pluto and Alias on Area 52, and Fissionmetroid is even getting a percentage for his work on the particle effects.

In the end, I'm not afraid to say that I would be extremely happy to see my maps in the game, be able to put "Iron Gauntlet Project Lead" on my resume. I love to lead projects. I lead a Rube Goldberg team at my university, and in the past even led a game development team at my high school. If I can guarantee amazing MVM content, provide both a project and contest for workshop creators to make robotic items and weapons, and otherwise guarantee a complete update from my team, then I don't care how it comes across to you all.

What is the difference between bringing an SFM I created and asking workshop creators to make workshop items (EOTL), and bringing 3 mvm maps that 7 people worked on and asking workshop creators to make workshop items? The difference is that SFM creators wouldn't be coming after me saying that I'm money grubbing for trying to build an update around my content.

This is how new TF2 content is made now. This is just the whole paradigm shift that has taken place. Valve doesn't build an update around your content anymore. They take a completed project, curate whatever assets they would like to see in it, and then ask you to finalize it.

You know what? I'm having one of the best times of my life. I'm interacting with all sorts of high up community creators, organizing asset creation, and getting to play my favorite game in the process. I'm living the dream that I've worked over 4 years towards, and the people who I started this journey with are now only looking at me with contempt.

Thanks for the positive responses in this thread (and no, shitting all over me then saying best of luck at the end does not count). I hope you all follow the project and are rooting for us in the end.
 

fubarFX

The "raw" in "nodraw"
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Jun 1, 2009
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I can assure you that all that went down wasn't a problem with you but a problem with this community, it was bound to happen. Tf2's mapping community has been frustrated with many issues regarding the game for a long time. Now things are really boiling up with the arrival of the workshop and it's being made obvious that tf2m is not adapting to the changing landscape. you can be sure a lot of people are feeling uneasy right now and that's just how it goes.
 

killohurtz

Distinction in Applied Carving
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Feb 22, 2014
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@YM I was one of the few people trying to bring a levelheaded piece of advice for Woozlez to this discussion and you think I was just piling on a bandwagon?

First of all, Woozlez already admitted that he uses TF2M mainly for promotion, so it shouldn't come as a surprise to him that people like me don't know him well and are growing tired of his advertisements. Maybe it's hard to hear, but it's the truth. However, I encouraged him to fix that by involving himself more with this community so that more people would be familiar with him and willing to support his endeavors. I want him to be seen in a positive light here. You can't deny that interacting with the community is a step in the right direction.

Second, you accused me of being rude by saying we shouldn't be inclined to do things for people who don't do things for us. Really? Is it so evil to want people to give back when a community helps them out? It's written right in the goddamn site rules. I think it's a perfectly reasonable expectation of someone who consistently drops in just to get attention and testers.

Lastly I have no clue where you got the idea that I was telling Woozlez to assimilate or get out. I literally just suggested that he take advantage of TF2Maps' constructive side so that he can give some, get some, and make a few friends in the process. It was by no means a demand.

So yeah, I don't know how you came to the conclusion that I was trying to be rude.
 

tyler

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Sep 11, 2013
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This thread just makes me out to be the worst person in the whole world.
You know, I didn't really like you before, but I didn't intend this. You're right about everything. I'm sorry. You are not a bad person at all.

I'm trying to hold on to a TF2 that doesn't exist anymore, and hasn't really existed for 6 or 7 years. I see that now. I get it. I've been unhappy with this game for years! Everything I do comes from that space.

I don't know why, but I thought the map workshop would actually bring it back to that time, for some reason. I should have known better after already knowing what the item workshop was like, after seeing Snowplow put in. I actually enjoy Snowplow, but I hate everything around it. And that's because I'm holding onto old TF2.

Woozlez, I hope you can accept my sincere apology for this wreck. I take it all back.

When I came back to TF2M several months ago after a 3 year break, I said I was a much happier person. I was, too. But I think allowing myself to come back to TF2 after everything I've been through personally... I think being here and playing TF2 let me slip back to the place I was several years ago, which was not a good one. That's not the fault of anyone here; it's mine. I have a weakness for game design and very little places to scratch the itch.

I don't know why it's Woozlez' post of all posts that makes me realize I can't let myself keep being here, that I can't keep playing TF2. But it is.

@YM, sorry for being an asshole. I still think you ignore people's points sometimes, but I'm definitely the bigger dickhead overall.

@Fr0Z3nR, sorry for being an asshole. I still think you should include the staff in more decisions, but you're right that it's a grievance I should take up privately rather than post in a public thread.

@Woozlez, sorry for dragging your name through the mud here and calling into question your motives. I mean, of course we all want Valve to buy our stuff, and of course money is a motivator. To claim otherwise is stupid. And you're right--I was holding SFM to loftier standards, which I simply can't support, so I concede. It is a paradigm shift. It's exactly what Valve asked for. It's what the community likes on the whole. I want the old TF2 and I was mad that things aren't going Old TF2 ways. I'm just a huge dumbass.

Sorry to everyone else, too, especially anyone I was mean to. I admit in this discussion I've not cared if I sounded rude, but generally I've tried to take great pains to not come across as brusquely as I did several years ago.

I shouldn't have come back so I won't stay any longer.

Best of luck--sincerely this time.
 
Dec 28, 2014
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I can assure you that all that went down wasn't a problem with you but a problem with this community, it was bound to happen. Tf2's mapping community has been frustrated with many issues regarding the game for a long time. Now things are really boiling up with the arrival of the workshop and it's being made obvious that tf2m is not adapting to the changing landscape. you can be sure a lot of people are feeling uneasy right now and that's just how it goes.

I don't think the workshop is anything this community should really be worried about honestly, I don't see that many servers running maps on the workshop. If anything people from this community know that the workshop is where you upload maps now when you're pretty much finished so that Valve can consider them for future campaigns.

I honestly think people should be excited about the changes in attitudes towards mappers. It seems like Valve actually care about community maps now, when before it honestly felt like they didn't really care.
 

Fruity Snacks

Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums
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Sep 5, 2010
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I don't think the workshop is anything this community should really be worried about honestly, I don't see that many servers running maps on the workshop. If anything people from this community know that the workshop is where you upload maps now when you're pretty much finished so that Valve can consider them for future campaigns.

I honestly think people should be excited about the changes in attitudes towards mappers. It seems like Valve actually care about community maps now, when before it honestly felt like they didn't really care.

I don't think that specifically is his concern.
 
Jan 20, 2010
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I'm going to keep the drama out of the other thread. Woozlez posted that long message from [name here] and I'd like to respond to him, but I'll keep to Frozen's request of keeping the drama out of there as much as possible. So I'll reply here and link to this post in that thread.

I only have a few things I want to say here:

First, I apologize if my first post in this thread was taken as rude. I don't apologize for what I said, but I do agree that how I said it could have been worded better. For that, I am sorry.

Second, I know very little about MvM and how those maps are made. I've also been absent from the TF2 community during the entire duration of MvM's existence, so that certainly doesn't help. So I figure that's at least somewhat important to say.

Third, my only gripe with this entire thing was the wording of the post here and on Facepunch. Whatever the intention of Woozlez, it came off as him asking for people to dedicate their hard time to make items so that he could get his maps into the game. He even confirmed it in this very thread. Just in case anyone missed that:
Yeah, didn't you already send the MVM you made maps to Valve? This really just looks like a very transparent way to get people to make items for you so that you can lean on Valve a little harder to add your maps with this whole "community update" thing.
Yes, that is kind of the whole idea. But this is just one way to make an update happen - Invasion was much less transparent but that caused issues (The cosmetic conquest and mercs vs aliens contests).

In this case, it's a more transparent project because the maps and missions are already completed, and there's no reason to make those secret. I think the actual map and mission content will give us a bigger lean on item creators.

I knew that at this point you have to make a complete update, all wrapped up with a ribbon and everything for Valve to even glance at it. After a month of not hearing back from multiple people we emailed at Valve, this is the route we have to take to make new MVM happen.

as well as this from the facepunch thread:
Q: Will you accept more missions for the maps?
A: We are not accepting missions for the official set, but we will consider adding quality missions to the map download, in order to provide more content to players.

I am not quoting these to shit all over Woozlez, just to give some context to my feelings at the time.

I am, however, very happy to hear that isn't the case and that maps were solicited from the community before hand. But I just want everyone to understand that my tone came from the initial shock of the information I was presented.

Woozlez, I do not hate you and I do actually wish you luck. I am the first to admit that I would love Valve to pick up my maps and I wish the same for you. I just hope you take a look at what I say and then perhaps reflect on the way you have phrased things as well and perhaps realize that we both have been misunderstood. :)
 

UKCS-Alias

Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?
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Sep 8, 2008
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Q: Will you accept more missions for the maps?
A: We are not accepting missions for the official set, but we will consider adding quality missions to the map download, in order to provide more content to players.
This is again a part just to cover something complex. We again dont want to refuse custom content. But the advanced tour already would have 6 missions. I made a 7th mission (and from the beginning i was aware it would become a fallback, yet i still did hope it would get in). Its in the end simple: you have to set a point in where you dont change anything. This warning at least will prevent anyone from that dissapointment. As during the moment i made the advanced mission it just wasnt certain. And in the end woozles just picked the mission from the person that was initialy ment to make them to at least not dissapoint him.

Unless another full tour of missions can be made the extra missions will remain with the map, but fall outside of any tour. I know the dissapointment of not getting your mission in a tour. But then again, i at least have 2 expert missions as fallback on that.

Woozles also could have said:
Q: Will you accept more missions for the maps?
A: No, the tour is full and we already have a fallback mission.
Would you be more happy if he did it like that?
 
Jan 20, 2010
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Would you be more happy if he did it like that?

No. What would have made me happy is if he'd been a little more clear with the process they went through to include the maps. At face value it didn't necessarily look like there was a process at all. I personally think when an update like this is announced that maps shouldn't be set in stone yet either and should be treated much like the items they will eventually pick.

Of course, it might have ended up that these three maps would've ended up being the chosen maps that way too, but it would've been nice to see the process with our own eyes instead of having it be done before hand. And hell, you never know what maps could have been in the works in places other than where you test that might have wanted to be included as well.

In the end, Woozlez spoke of transparency. The transparency was in: "We are making this update to get these maps into the game, because that's what Valve wants." What I think the transparency should have been: "We are making a community update based around robots and MvM maps. We have some maps we like already, but we'd like your input as well! Let us know what you'd like us to include or if you have some maps of your own!" and then kept the community updated with your decisions and why you've included the maps.

That would have made me happy. :)
 

BlazingDiancie

L1: Registered
Jan 7, 2015
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Jesus Christ, the salt is REAL! WTF is going on? I knew that there were some skirmishes over IG but I didn't think it was this bad! I honestly just want everyone to get along...
 

Crowbar

Spiritual preprocessor
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Dec 19, 2015
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The salt WAS real, mate. There are dates under posts, try not to bump ancient threads without a good reason.
 
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