Iron Gauntlet thing

Discussion in 'Site Discussion' started by Leminnes, Nov 3, 2015.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Leminnes

    aa Leminnes

    Messages:
    1,317
    Positive Ratings:
    801
    Alright, cool, let's move this elsewhere. Move this if it isn't the right forum, I wasn't 100% sure...

    I mean, I can't speak for anyone other than myself. But I just saw the original thread and that's how I felt. I'm not a hateful person, at least I don't believe I am, but I saw him essentially admit that this update was created in order to get two of his maps picked up by Valve. I was shocked more than anything.

    I'm not salty. I'm not sour. I'm not jealous. I have no personal grudge against the guy or anyone else. I'm sorry if I tossed up shit but I didn't feel comfortable not saying anything at all.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

    Messages:
    4,113
    Positive Ratings:
    6,077
    I think we can show that this is a cool contest for people to enter while also being critical of how it was presented to us, the motivations behind it, and discussing what TF2M's part in it is.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

    Messages:
    7,099
    Positive Ratings:
    5,745
    Someone creates a community initiative in order to better package their items for selection?


    You and @tyler started a torrent of hate on the guy for doing something cool and giving us a heads up about it.

    Frozen was the one who offered to host the page, Frozen encouraged him to post about it here, and you two jumped on him and started name calling and being total dickfaces about the whole thing.

    I've been encouraging him to do something like this for ages, he's sitting on two great mvm maps, and has a third from another author (earkam but on their own they lack punch. as far as I'm aware there aren't any other good mvm maps that are floating around currently. So why shouldn't they be getting together and trying to package them up into an update? How dare they want to make something cool.

    I think you guys have made TF2M's views abundantly clear, you all want absolutely nothing to do with this monster and his evil self promoting ways. If raising concerns was what people wanted to do, then that's what they should have done, not name calling and being needlessly rude to the guy.

    I'm gobsmacked at how horribly everyone piled in and started hating on the guy who has done nothing wrong. I thought we were a community that helps people. But apparently anyone wanting to utilize the community to help their own goals needs our hate instead.

    What the fuck guys?
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 3
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  4. Leminnes

    aa Leminnes

    Messages:
    1,317
    Positive Ratings:
    801
    Whoa whoa. I never name called. I may have questioned his motives, but it wasn't without reason.

    I am personally being very calm here so I'd appreciate you chilling out as well.

    You obviously know Woozlez better than I. I know nothing about the guy besides him promoting this and admitting he did form this update in order to promote his maps. Now, you might not see a problem with that, but others do.

    I'd personally like to hear why it is okay from you. Only because I might not know the whole perspective here and would like to learn.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 3
  5. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

    Messages:
    5,035
    Positive Ratings:
    3,991
    Hey, @YM, just wondering but have you ever read a single one of my posts in your life? Because every time we get into a debate (like this one), you don't seem to acknowledge anything I say and instead spend lines and lines berating anyone who would be stupid enough to even start a discussion in the first place.

    Have to say it isn't shocking you'd side with Woozlez when taking advantage of pressure from Reddit/Facepunch is exactly what got Snowplow in the game.

    My points (again) are this: One, it's not a community update. This is Woozlez asking people to make shit for him so he can make money himself. Two, Frozen should not be doing this kind of stuff without talking to the staff (which very evidently happened). I don't care if we use TF2M to help in community endeavors, I think that's a great idea, that is not my complaint at all. What I don't like is when there's no review of what "community" projects we're helping with. If Frozen feels like he has to make snap decisions or something maybe it's a sign that the entire thing should have been managed better from the get-go. It's about judgment and taking our jobs seriously--not because this is a No Fun Zone, but because we are one of the oldest TF2 communities and a huge, invisible cornerstone of the game. Aligning ourselves with dodgy contests doesn't maintain our image of integrity.

    Please read my posts, then reply (that's the typical format of discussions). I'm tired of this shit you pull. Here's the first one. Here is the second. Stop replying to me like I'm some kind of moron that deserves no respect. Stop treating the other people here like they are idiots. Valid points have been raised by myself and others. Other Staff have weighed in on the topic. Follow the Thanks. I might be one of the only people saying this publicly, but I'm not the only one thinking it.

    If you're going to have an opinion on this discussion at all, at least don't be a massive dickhead and actually read the discussion we've already had.

    I didn't start a torrent of hate on anyone. I just called into question Woozlez' ethics and whether TF2M should be involved. I maintain we shouldn't, but it might be too late now.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 5
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  6. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

    Messages:
    6,391
    Positive Ratings:
    4,906
    @YM @tyler

    You're both being really rude towards each other and others. Bring in the civility, please. You're both adults.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  7. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

    Messages:
    5,035
    Positive Ratings:
    3,991
    You'll notice I was civil until YM started calling me a dickface, ignoring everything everyone has said, and dismissing the discussion with memey youtube videos. This is a trend with him; I'm not the first or only person to point it out, and it needs to be addressed. I know there's a record in the staff forum, or there should be--I've reported him for acting this way in chat and during tests, and I know others have too. Update it.
     
  8. fubarFX

    aa fubarFX The "raw" in "nodraw"

    Messages:
    1,630
    Positive Ratings:
    1,720
    • Thanks Thanks x 3
  9. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

    Messages:
    6,391
    Positive Ratings:
    4,906
    You completely disregarded what I requested.

    Should note, you did directly insult people (me included) before he made that post.

    Again, tyler, I ask that you (And YM) try your best to remain civil and respectful towards each other.
     
  10. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

    Messages:
    5,035
    Positive Ratings:
    3,991
    If you felt what I said about you was disparaging, perhaps you should adjust the image you've cultivated rather than complain. You are not the King of TF2M, and you do not have to do everything yourself. That's why there is a staff. I understand other staff often don't reply in a timely manner or at all, or don't have constructive feedback. I know that firsthand! But it doesn't give you license to do what you will or to act without consultation.

    If you felt I insulted Woozlez, well, have you ever tried to say someone lacks a strong moral compass without just outright insulting them? It's hard. He fully and freely admits the contest is just for his own gain anyway. How can I insult someone after that? He's done all the work for me.

    You're right that I could have probably phrased some stuff better, but frankly, even when I'm totally blunt I feel like no one is reading what I'm writing (and YM proves it). My only hope is that something positive comes of it. This shit will never change unless people start being blunt about what they think. It's like a TF2 map: if all the feedback is lukewarm and wishy-washy, the map never goes anywhere. If TF2M is going to associate with morally ambiguous contests, I am going to say something so that it never happens again.
     
  11. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

    Messages:
    6,391
    Positive Ratings:
    4,906
    Thank you for your feedback.

    However, much like the last thread, this isn't about me. Rope everything back to the iron gauntlet thing.

    EDIT: If you'd like to chat privately with me, about me, you're more than welcome to message me privately.
     
  12. fubarFX

    aa fubarFX The "raw" in "nodraw"

    Messages:
    1,630
    Positive Ratings:
    1,720
    off topic: I feel like there's an undertone of a schism in tf2m lately. I'm both scared and excited to see it unfold itself.

    I have this odd feeling that Valve has more or less given up control on tf2 and it's now our job to decide what direction the game will take. The gold standard is gone and it is turning into a free for all for everyone. Convince valve that the community is ready to support your content and they will probably put it in the game if it doesn't require too much effort on their part. If that means having promotion for content (quality content or else) then so be it. Now of course tf2m has /some/ visibility but I don't think it's really being proactive in taking center stage. So, in that stream of thought, ultimately I think the stuff tf2m decides to get involved in is mostly irrelevant. That's just how I feel tho, and that's a whole lot of off topic.

    Edit: the core issue is probably that the whole that forms tf2m is not larger than the sum of its parts. Or so I feel.

    Also I'm kinda curious to know what's the staff's take on this, what direction do they want to take and everything. I doubt it's even being discussed because tf2m has not exactly been known for being proactive in these things but I would be pleasantly surprised to hear about its current stance on the state of tf2 and tf2m as a whole. Is there a roadmap and where is it going?
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 5
    • Agree Agree x 1
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  13. Zed

    aa Zed Certified Most Crunk™

    Messages:
    1,248
    Positive Ratings:
    1,013
    I feel like Fr0z3n is too nice of a guy.
     
  14. fubarFX

    aa fubarFX The "raw" in "nodraw"

    Messages:
    1,630
    Positive Ratings:
    1,720
    hey, at the end of the day we're all nice people but these are hard times and hard questions are cropping up.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  15. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

    Messages:
    7,099
    Positive Ratings:
    5,745
    @tyler You can't just always assume that when people are calling you out on shit that they didn't read your posts.

    It's getting tired because you do it to anyone who disagrees with you, stop doing it.

    In this long post I've gone through and annotated all of the things that I was calling out as sourness/saltiness/rude/namecalling. The actions of these three people in particular are what I was calling a disgrace.

    First rudeness:
    Second rudeness, this whole post is drenched in a super rude attitude:
    Then you came back for more rudeness, including some namecalling:
    Rude/namecalling:
    This would have been better directed to a member of staff privately rather than in a thread where woozlez is reading. You know how rude it is to talk about someone as though they're not there in real life? applies on the internet too.
    (Also have you ever asked for a page? Frozen's totally happy to help out with this stuff.....)

    This is then really weird, suggesting you have larger problems with what's going on, when you're saying that you're already flabbergasted, but then immediately wishing well? This is just rude. If you have things to say, say them, don't say "oh well, I have major problems with you/your work, but hey good luck mate!"
    Then more people start piling in:
    Dick move, didn't need to be said. ever. Why would you ever say this to someone?

    More things that don't need to be said to anyone, ever:
    Then this is just "Hey if you don't do things for us, why should we do things for you?" Which is just so weirdly rude.
    Then this shows that kilohurtz had no idea how his post came across, and reiterates a weird "the group is more important than you are, be part of the group or we don't want you here" sentiment. We want to encourage all mapping endeavours guys. TF2M hardly does any mvm stuff so it's hardly surprising that mvm mappers aren't more active!
    Calling out the guy as though he's harassing Valve, unnecessarily aggressive:
    Admitting yourself that you're being confrontational (this whole paragraph is super aggressive. One sentence would have done, instead of being a rude about it. Instead of all the rudeness you spouted, why didn't you just ask up front if their position on accepting maps was flexible. You'd probably have found Woozlez would have given the same answer of willingness to add quality maps despite not actively looking for maps.
    It's actually getting tiring to quote everything rude and aggressive you said. But I'll press on because I want to make sure you've used that "you didn't read my posts" argument for the last time.

    This whole next section is very aggressive, you're putting words in their mouths, there was never any suggestion that TF2M is anti-mvm. Then the way you bring up that you paid for a server as though that enables you to take some moral high ground in.... some argument that I'm clearly missing. At this point you're just bashing alias and woozlez.
    Actually most of your complaints were that Woozlez is arrogantly and entitledly self promoting and that you hate the reddit/facepunch rage machine.

    Back into using the server you paid for as some holier than thou argument. I have no idea where this was going.
    No one said those things, you're just aggressively defending nothing.

    More holier than thou attitude:
    Oh look here's all the horrid torrent of hate and namecalling that I mentioned. You've wholesale moved on from any concerns over the content of the contest and are now launching full scale personal attacks on woozlez. totally uncalled for.

    Now you're aggressive at frozen, ignore his request to move discussion elsewhere and launch straight back into a torrent of namecalling and rude personal attack on woozlez and now you're out right stating that his maps aren't good. Which is not only untrue, but totally uncalled for. You're also making assumptions on the part of Valve, also ignoring just how many people were involved in the three maps in the project. one of which was made by someone else. It's coming across incredibly salty and like you're pissed that it's not an explicitly TF2maps project. TF2maps.net doesn't have a monopoly on the community, projects that don't involve us can still be community projects.
    Then this section of rude aggressive questions are so flawed:
    Would it? The fact that they have the 3 maps they want and aren't asking for more means it isn't a community event? Weird logic
    Why so? eotl started as two guys making a video, is that not a community update?
    I can't fathom why you're mad, but it's not because this isn't a community thing. you're just attacking the project for not being open to new maps. Because it's not open to maps, that gives you justification to launch into we-hate-woozlez day. No it doesn't.


    You're reiterating everything before, all the same rudeness and personal attacks on both Frozen and Woozlez
    I agree with this bit, the way you're reacting to this is pitiful and disgusting, it makes me think that yes, the community IS full of children.

    ---

    So at the end of all that, yes, I had read all of your posts. You did start a torrent of hate and namecalling.
    @Leminnes while you did no namecalling yourself, as annotated above, your posts were full of a horribly rude attitude.

    As for your points being that this isn't a community update, you're right, this isn't yet backed by Valve in any way. but that doesn't make it woozlez's own ego-stroking grand move to blackmail valve into paying him money. It actually IS a community project. A whole bunch of people have already been heavily involved with the three maps. I can name four of the people involved without really knowing much about the maps, I'm 90% certain that more people were involved in the creation of just those three maps. (Woozlez, Earkham, Alias and Hydrogen).

    Our image of integrity is HUGELY called into question when in response to someone posting about an upcoming project two prominent members launch into a torrent of hate and namecalling. You're doing far more damage to 'our image of integrity' than he is.

    Finally, EVEN IF IT IS "just woozlez asking people to make shit for him so that he can make money too" as you say. The correct response would have been to ignore the thread and PM a member of staff with your concerns.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2015
  16. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

    Messages:
    5,035
    Positive Ratings:
    3,991
    Thanks for annotating my posts for anyone else that didn't read them.

    I don't feel you've invalidated a word of them though, nor do I feel you understand the concerns I was raising, but I know repeating myself doesn't work with you. Calling things rude doesn't make them false, and holding discussions in private doesn't solve problems.

    The simple fact is I don't see 90% of what I wrote as rude, and I definitely don't see Leminnes' posts as rude. I wonder if the people thanking our posts think they are rude. I wonder if the people thanking our posts (but not posting themselves) would have PMed staff, like you suggest, if I had never posted. I doubt it.
     
  17. fubarFX

    aa fubarFX The "raw" in "nodraw"

    Messages:
    1,630
    Positive Ratings:
    1,720
    Leminnes just wanted to share his legitimate feelings about what was going on and it turned into a shit show because people are acting like insecure little plebs instead of adults. can't believe people are still calling each other out when there are far bigger issues at hand. none of this needed to be personal. but the issues the community is facing are very real and this is certainly not helping.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 8
  18. Fr0Z3nR

    aa Fr0Z3nR Creator of blackholes & memes. Destroyer of forums

    Messages:
    6,391
    Positive Ratings:
    4,906
    I definitely agree with fubars last few posts. This type of attitude will go no where, if the community is becoming a bigger part of the content of TF2.

    @tyler in the past, people have messaged admins for this sort of thing, amongst various other things.
     
  19. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

    Messages:
    5,035
    Positive Ratings:
    3,991
    Yeah, but I was hoping raising that concern (that the contest is a transparent money grab) directly to Woozlez would invite him to counter that and explain how it isn't. Imagine my surprise.

    It's not like he broke a rule and drawing attention to it would make it worse, or he necro'd some thread so posting to chide him would be counterproductive. I wanted to be proven wrong in my reading of his contest. Or I wanted him to say, "Hey, good point! Let's be more inclusive." Something like that, anyway.

    Anyway, I'm happy it opened a discussion, even if no one (including me) is happy about being involved. I don't think PMing anyone would've been the right course here.
     
  20. fubarFX

    aa fubarFX The "raw" in "nodraw"

    Messages:
    1,630
    Positive Ratings:
    1,720
    I'm still waiting for answers tho.

    I'll be 100% honest and put out there that I feel like tf2m doesn't really fill what I want out of a community anymore and that I want to be proven wrong.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.