ESEA-Invite Player lucrative's New Map Testing! (for 6v6)

T

trees

L2: Junior Member
Apr 1, 2017
80
39
Thanks for the review! I'm making a payload map at the moment, but if I come back to this I'll make it from scratch, putting more thought into the scaling and the other issues you mentioned.
 
lucrative

lucrative

L1: Registered
Dec 28, 2018
40
83
trees said:
Thanks for the review! I'm making a payload map at the moment, but if I come back to this I'll make it from scratch, putting more thought into the scaling and the other issues you mentioned.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your hard work trees :)
 
lucrative

lucrative

L1: Registered
Dec 28, 2018
40
83
Kobolite said:
So when is the map going to get tested?
Click to expand...

I replied over steam, I don't usually run tests on fridays and saturdays, Im also on a large rotation of maps to test so i usually only get to 1 or 2 a day as I run 2-3 30 minute sets on each map.

will be tested soon :D!
 
lucrative

lucrative

L1: Registered
Dec 28, 2018
40
83
I did a vod here looking over a ton of maps but ill highlight some times where i talk about specific maps! https://www.twitch.tv/videos/363930611

cp_highstakes by Gorgonzilla https://www.twitch.tv/videos/363930611?t=00h00m02s

koth_pacific by Defcon https://www.twitch.tv/videos/363930611?t=00h38m44s

koth_gibson by Kobolite https://www.twitch.tv/videos/363930611?t=00h56m04s

koth_swell by ganglyste@m https://www.twitch.tv/videos/363930611?t=02h04m03s (Don't know if this is intended for comp or not and havent contacted ganglyste@m it just caught my eye)

I also discovered maps koth_forge https://tf2maps.net/threads/forge.25795/ and koth_avalanche https://tf2maps.net/downloads/koth_avalanche.2505/updates which have apperently both seen some play but I want to do some testing on, if anyone knows these developers please direct them here :)
 
lucrative

lucrative

L1: Registered
Dec 28, 2018
40
83
MegapiemanPHD said:
koth_synthetic has had some comp testing for both 6's and highlander. It's got a couple of problems but seems to be generally enjoyed by both casual and competitive players. I've been trying to gather as much feedback on it as I can to put together a new version of the map and would love to know what you and you're peeps think of it: https://tf2maps.net/downloads/synthetic.5573/
Click to expand...

I forgot to reply to this apperently, I did get a couple playtests on this map.

The map was generally liked but is there really that much room for changes? it seems very finished and Im not sure you can really change much about the map without completely redesigning it to address some of the issues brought up. Overall the map is pretty polished and plays well.
 
MegapiemanPHD

MegapiemanPHD

Doctorate in Deliciousness
aa
Mar 31, 2012
2,004
1,313
lucrative said:
I forgot to reply to this apperently, I did get a couple playtests on this map.

The map was generally liked but is there really that much room for changes? it seems very finished and Im not sure you can really change much about the map without completely redesigning it to address some of the issues brought up. Overall the map is pretty polished and plays well.
Click to expand...
I don't plan on doing a total overhaul but the indoor areas, to the side of the point, seem to be a spot of contention. It seems players would rather stay there instead of going on the point so I am going to rework them as well as make the point more open. As long as there are things that can be improved, there are always room for changes.
 
Nethy

Nethy

L1: Registered
Jan 19, 2018
25
15
Sorry in advance if this was the wrong thread to post this but...

I’m extremely interested in mapmaking for the competitive scene. I have limited experience as a 4v4 comp medic and felt a desire to attempt creating a map in future when I entered the map making scene. While I can’t guarante a map anytime soon.

Skimming through this thread, I saw that death pits were a no no & it’d be helpful to know the restrictions when planning a 5-Cp/Koth map. So Is there any guidelines/forums available on mapmaking for comp maps?

Tl;dr- is there any framework/guide of what a Comp map needs to be/avoid?

Thanks c:
 
lucrative

lucrative

L1: Registered
Dec 28, 2018
40
83
Nethy said:
Sorry in advance if this was the wrong thread to post this but...

I’m extremely interested in mapmaking for the competitive scene. I have limited experience as a 4v4 comp medic and felt a desire to attempt creating a map in future when I entered the map making scene. While I can’t guarante a map anytime soon.

Skimming through this thread, I saw that death pits were a no no & it’d be helpful to know the restrictions when planning a 5-Cp/Koth map. So Is there any guidelines/forums available on mapmaking for comp maps?

Tl;dr- is there any framework/guide of what a Comp map needs to be/avoid?

Thanks c:
Click to expand...

Hey man thanks for the reply, and thanks for your interest in Comp. map making :) Beater actually created a really awesome guide to 6v6 map making for his Meet Your Map contest :D (The only thing that is a little outdated is Comp. players don't actually hate snow maps, what is generally the problem is the particle and weather effects drop FPS, but as long as they are able to be disabled its not an issue, most players use a high FPS config)

Beater said:
Mapping advice from a 6v6 know-it-all elitist

The following is my (admittedly super subjective) opinion and advice for things to keep in mind when making a good competitive 6v6 map:

1: Avoid left/right asymmetry. Maps like croissant were universally panned by the competitive 6v6 community largely due to its left/right asymmetry. People get confused about red and blu not being the same, and many players argue that one side has an advantage due to many projectiles coming out of the right side of the screen. Save yourself the hassle and don't make a map that features prominent asymmetry like this.

2. Eliminate as much randomness and as many weird gimmicks as possible. Having trains, randomly opening pathways or anything that is outside of the players' control is not recommended. Most 6v6 players also dislike things like elevators, launchpads, death pits and other terrain that kills you. Do not include these features in your map.

3. Pushing into last and pushing out of second are the most important aspects of your 5cp maps to get right. Having a good flow and making sure that all points can be properly pushed are what makes a 5cp map fun to play. This is true at all points of the map, but nowhere more than when it comes to pushing into and out of last, since this is where a lot of maps will get bogged down due to the defense having a spawn advantage, yet being unwilling to take risks and push because they are so close to their last point.

4. Don't put the final capture point too close to the defenders' spawn, and too far away from the attackers' entrance.

5. Avoid tiny chokes as much as possible. The general rule of thumb when making a 5cp map for 6v6 is to have 3-4 entrances between each point, and this mostly holds true. In general you want to keep your doorways wide and tall to allow players to force their way through, and make sure you spread out your chokes in such a way that you can't stand in one convenient spot and watch all entrances. Also avoid cramped areas as much as possible. If any part of your map reminds you of Junction, you need to rethink your map layout! (The metalworks lobby is an example of a bad indoor area, while Badlands has a pretty good lobby)

6. Avoid excessive sight-lines. This goes beyond preventing a sniper from abusing and dominating a map. Players are more willing to move around if they can't be seen by the enemy team, so making sure that props and map architecture blocks players' vision actually help prevent stalemates since it's easier to over-extend and and get caught out by enemy players. It's also easier to sneak in to go for a play.

7. Make use of varied terrain and height differences. Scouts, soldiers and demomen thrive in different kinds of terrain, so making sure that your map has some areas that favor every class more than the others is a good idea. Having a bunch of flat terrain with props on it is boring, and using gradual inclines and changes of terrain is much more interesting to play on, even from a DM-perspective. See Badlands for a master class in varied terrain that emphasizes height differences. Spire is probably going too far, if I'm being perfectly honest, though.

8. Don't use snow. Competitive players hate snow.

9. When holding an area, a 6v6 team is looking to achieve several things:
1. Lock down chokes with sticky traps and rocket/pipe spam.
2. Position their combo on the most advantageous position to win a fight (usually some high-ground spot.)
3. keep their medic far back and well-protected from suicide plays.
4. Have an easy avenue of escape.
5. Protect the cap point.
If all of these objectives can be achieved from the same position, your map is bad. Forcing teams to make choices is what makes for a good competitive map that tests skill and teamwork.
Click to expand...
 
lucrative

lucrative

L1: Registered
Dec 28, 2018
40
83
I just wanted to post a "progress report" for anyone that was wondering about the performance of these playtests and how far we have come with some maps :)

cp_propaganda_b14 (Quantum) - b13 is being played in ESEA this season, awaiting feedback and updates, first version tested b3

koth_alb_a2 (Messing Around) - tested, awaiting large a3 update, first version tested a2

koth_arable_a2 (Bereth) - untested

cp_wetlands_a3 (Brandan) - untested

cp_windfall_a5 (Collaide) - bugged, awaiting fix

cp_logjam_rc10 (Hyce) - tested (considered finished, in ETF2L and ozfortress)

koth_avalanche_rc12 (Gutty) - untested, first version tested rc9

cp_domain_a7 (Quantum) - untested, first version tested a2

cp_mist_b5 (hutty) - tested, awaiting new version, first version tested and adapted b2a

cp_kalinka_rc5 (Jusa) - tested, considered finished, first version tested rc1

koth_clearcut_b8_1 (SturmTrpr) - untested

cp_bluff_b1 (Paper) - tested, awaiting BIG b2 update, first version tested a1

cp_craneway_b12 (Bereth) - untested, first version tested b7

cp_workflow_b4 (Brandan) - tested, awaiting b5, first version tested a9

cp_alamosa_b12 (Hyce) - untested, first version tested a1

koth_ordinance_b5a (Paper) - tested, considered finished, ETF2L has done tests and we will be testing more in future

cp_klondike_a7 (Nash) - tested, awaiting large b1 update, first version tested a3

FORTHCOMING MAPS;

cp_chiselled (Asd)

cp_cannikin (Spl4sh)

cp_cargo (chojje)

koth_pacific (Defcon)

cp_distillery (Gadget) <-- ready for testing

koth_viridii (hondjo)

cp_drudgery (Mould)

koth_verso (Quantum, myself)

cp_terra (myself, Brandan, Quantum) <-- ready for testing

koth_nevada (Gorgonzilla) <-- ready for testing

Huge shoutout to all of these super talented developers for being part of the playtests and working extra hard to take everyones thoughts into consideration and making amazing maps, the progress so far has been awesome and Im hoping to see more in the furture. Another shoutout to all the players that make this happen, if you are a player and want to be apart of these tests please add me and start testing!

Here's to hoping we can prove more and more everyday that these maps deserve to be considered for league play!
 
Last edited:
H

Hyce777

L3: Member
Jun 16, 2009
128
22
Nethy said:
Sorry in advance if this was the wrong thread to post this but...

I’m extremely interested in mapmaking for the competitive scene. I have limited experience as a 4v4 comp medic and felt a desire to attempt creating a map in future when I entered the map making scene. While I can’t guarante a map anytime soon.

Skimming through this thread, I saw that death pits were a no no & it’d be helpful to know the restrictions when planning a 5-Cp/Koth map. So Is there any guidelines/forums available on mapmaking for comp maps?

Tl;dr- is there any framework/guide of what a Comp map needs to be/avoid?

Thanks c:
Click to expand...

There's the classic guide (I believe put together by Carn?) which still holds pretty true:

Guidelines for Making Maps for Competitive TF2

  • Good rollout (don’t have to focus on this too early on, since it can end up detracting from your map)

    • Usually the first thing players judge on a map

    • Should be any of these:
  • Fast

  • Easy

  • Direct

  • Adaptable

  • Fun!

  • Pickups

    • Should generally be out of fighting areas, but close to gameplay or holding positions

    • Health

      • Suggests control over an area by providing a health buffer to anyone in that location
    • Ammo

      • Hold Ammo - suggests a holding position, gives ammo to players holding around that location

      • Transitional Ammo - supports players with ammo when they navigate through a specific route

  • 2-3 routes

    • Main:

      • Most advantageous/direct route to the next area

      • Defines where the defending team usually holds to counter
    • Flank:

      • Best route for getting behind the defending team’s holding position
    • Alternate:

      • Extra route that doesn’t accomplish the same tasks as the other routes

      • Provides alternative decisions for attacking

        • Sending a player in, making space, getting height, etc.

  • Shutters

    • Can generally be thought of like a choke, but are usually harder to commit through

    • Stalls players for a short time before letting them go through

    • Vertically closing shutters force aggressing players to show their feet to defending players before passing through


  • Good Holding Position

    • Should have/be:

      • Path to the objective

      • View of the main route

      • Buffer between main route to next area

      • Safe (there’s a variety of factors that make a holding position safe)
    • Players tend to hold as far forward as they can to provide a stronger buffer against attackers

  • Entrances

    • Can have more than one entrance coming from individual routes, but usually you want to keep the total entrances between 2.5 and 6, otherwise areas start to become too easy or too difficult to lock down

    • Generally there’s a space that separates areas and gives some leeway on aggression (no man’s land)

  • Team Resources (Expand on me)

  • Last Spawns

    • Each spawn exit should have the same viability when defending the last point

      • A pseudo-isosceles triangle should form between the exits and the point (this is what causes the symmetry on most map’s last points)
    • Should not be easily campable by a demoman (fixes general spawn camping by all classes)

      • Can be fixed with these types of alterations:

        • Visibility - Remove the ability to see both exits at the same time from any decent holding position

        • Advantage - Put the location that can be held to see both spawn exits on low ground, in a tight corridor, have it be easily spammable, etc.
    • Try to avoid having an easily-spammable box right before the spawn (e.g. gullywash). This discourages teams from being able to retreat/rotate back into their spawn, which takes them out of the fight, anyway.

  • Forward Spawns

    • Should have a disadvantage to the point they’re closest to (denying people using the spawn as an easy, strong holding spot)

      • A couple of ways to accomplish this are:

        • Having the spawn far away from the point

        • Putting the spawn on lower height than the point

        • Blocking the spawn’s vision to the point
    • Generally takes around or less than 20-25 secs for a 100% walking-speed class to get to the current fighting area from
  • Mids

    • High ground to hold and push from

    • Options to get up to the high ground

    • Average Mid Types:

      • Left-Right Mids (Choose side to push), Linear Mids (Push from the same direction, multiple options to push from single side)

      • Open Mid (Larger, more player routes), Closed Mids (Smaller, usually funnels players into a specific route more)

  • Fixing Sightlines and Balancing for Sniper

    • Sightlines that see past a choke/entrance usually form when the choke/entrance isn’t setup correctly

      • Fixed by turning the choke 90 degrees, putting a shutter on it, or changing the shape of the area around it

      • Try not to block these sightlines with objects or spam, since it usually ends up taking away from gameplay more than adding to it
    • Limit a sniper’s vision so that any good sniper holding position can only see a maximum of 2/3 routes. The routes that can’t be seen by the sniper will generally be used to counter it
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom