CTF Epicenter B2

[DrLambda]

Beta 1 is out now. It was a lot of work, but i hope you like it. Will submit it to gamedays etc in the next days and think about what to do next.

Credits!
@Crowbar for stripless metal textures
@Void for stencil overlays
@Shmitz for Intel Point Base
Evil knevil & NassimO for Delivery Van

Old text:

Spoiler: Click to read

Hey,

yesterday we talked about old tfc maps and gamemodes, and while talking about it, i got interested in creating a remake of Epicenter. So i got myself the source file of the old Epicenter, checked distances etc and blocked out an alpha for a TF2 version.

I know there is a TF2 version already, but it pretty much is a simple port rather than a remake, so it's not optimized for TF2 gameplay, which i try to do with this map.

This map is highly experimental. It might not work out at all. I'm willing to do like 3 or 4 alphas before i decide if it is worth it to go further down the road.

The gamemode is a variation of CTF. It's not exactly Invade CTF as in push, but everyone has it's own flag and tries to get it to the respective APC on the other side of the map. The flag originally starts in the spawn, but because of limitations of the CTF gamemode in TF2, the spawn has been cut into two rooms, one with resupply lockers and respawn room logic, and the other with the flag. It's still impossible for the other team to get to where the flag spawns.

For now, i pretty much only blocked out the map, changed a few dimensions, changed the ladders in the original into ramps as much as possible, and added some additional cover or walls where i felt it was necessary, mostly to stop someone with a Base Jumper and a Stickybomb Launcher to cap within two jumps. If i see that it is still to easy to explosive jump your way in there, i will take additional steps.

Also, like on the original, the bottom route is really flat. I might change that in the future - Especially the cap zone seems ripe for change if capping becomes too easy.

Enough talk, let's kill each other. Virtually.

 

[DrLambda]

Additional info: I tried my best to make the map readable, but the fact that the capture zone you have to defend is not too close to your spawn still needs some getting used to. If someone has an idea how to make it more obvious, let me know. For now, i added a map to the spawn rooms describing what you have to do.

 

[TMB]

I was working in epicenter too... :/

 

[DrLambda]

Right now i only put like 5-6 hours in. Nothing is stopping you from creating your own version. Like i said in the post, this might still be a spectacular failure for all i know.

 

[Moonrat]

Where in the hell did you grab a daytime pipeline skybox?

 

[DrLambda]

Where in the hell did you grab a daytime pipeline skybox?

Hurricane 01 from the swamp pack.

 

[Moonrat]

Hurricane 01 from the swamp pack.

Ahhh I never used the hurricane skyboxes from the pack. Just that beautiful night one....

 

[DrLambda]

Uhm, so yeah, gameday/imp feedback post.

Rather than trying to answer individual points, because of the experimental nature of the map, i'll try to get as many testers in here as i can remember from the feedback page or the demos i watched and then talk about as many points as possible at once.

@Muddy @Zan (rx8) @ODSP @Diva Dan @Habber T Mancer @Hyperion @iiboharz @phi @MegapiemanPHD (Hopefully, some of the other testers find their way in here too, but in many cases i can't find their forum names.)

So, as you probably figured out by now, this isn't a new map, but rather a remake of an official TFC map. Pretty much everything about it right now is a carbon copy of the old map, except for some sanity checks for explosive jumping (you could pretty much suicide sticky jump from spawn onto the capture zone If i just used the original layout.) Also, another route to mid was lost on the way. That route would probably speed up the gameplay even more. Last but not least, the original map resets after every cap, but i didn't want to make engis/uber too useless.
In the tests, i saw a quite scary first cap time, because a scout can pretty much get into the cap area at the same time as the engis. If there was noone helping to defend, this would pretty much always result in a cap. I like the idea thrown around at the imp to turn the capture zone into a capture point on which you have to stand for some amount of time before capping, but i think that fix would be nothing more than duct tape for the problem with route length.
Also, explosive jumping still is kinda a problem, and i'm going to make it a bit harder to jump through the whole map with two stickies.

What i want to know from the testers the most (obviously aside from suggestions that you think would improve gameplay) - Is this worth it? Can you see the gamemode and the basic layout working out? Like i said in the opening post, i know that there are quite a few potential problems, and i've seen most of the problems arise during the two tests at some point, as well as a few others. I'm willing to iterate on this map a few times, but if i don't see it work in TF2 while it doesn't at least somewhat resemble the original Epicenter, i'd rather scrap it. This is because while i always liked Epicenter, i want people to have fun on my maps aside from nostalgia (also, while watching the demos i realized how few people actually remember this map,) and if this map stops being Epicenter, i'd rather be working on something else.

 

[Diva Dan]

The gamemode and basic layout are both good ideas that can definitely work well! I trust the control point idea though, since it seems to work well on maps like pass_cuisine. Egan has a video on why he made the change and the benefits of capture zones if you want to watch. As far as route length goes, have the capture zone higher up and maybe closer to spawn. This way defenders will have to go uphill to stop captors but won't have to walk as far as last time. Just something more interesting than how flat it is now. Sorry if I don't make much sense, it's hard to explain. I can draw something if you'd like.

 

[DrLambda]

I think i understand what you want to tell me. The problem with moving the cap zone closer to spawn is that it also automatically moves it closer to the path through the building. I'm currently considering adding an additional defensive spawn exit that opens into the road where the APC is, possibly even adding one-sided glass to make it more obvious that defenders have to go there.

 

[Urban]

I think one of the other issues is that there is really only one way to get to the cap point, and that is just a long corridor. It is ridiculously easy to cover with just one sentry which made it next to impossible for the other team to even approach. Anyone who tried got splattered almost instantly. I think the capture area needs to be reworked so there are multiple entryways, maybe expand the space and add more height variation around the point as well. Not sure how you'd do that while staying true to the original layout though.

 

[DrLambda]

Changelog

• Added anti-stickyjump wall on mid
• Redesigned capture area
• Added additional path to capture zone
• Added additional spawn exit
• Added 3 second timer to capture zone (Sound notifications temporarily stolen from koth_leveled)
• Changed respawn wave time 10s -> 7s
• Made all arrow props nonsolid

Screenshots


Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[DrLambda]

I have to check the demos before i'll give excessive feedback again, but about the countdown that starts when you bring it to the wrong tank: Oops.

 

[DrLambda]

So, i watched the demo now.

@Cartfridge and everyone else who was confused:
Sorry for the wrong countdown, i think i messed something up when mirroring. I'll fix it for the next version. I have no idea why the hud would point to the wrong cap zone though, i guess i have to find that out.

@Erk and everyone talking about the countdown timer:
The countdown resets once you leave the cap zone. So a player entering and leaving the cap zone at will would repeat the "3" eternally right now. I don't have a better solution at the moment.

@Nick, @Berry
Great idea with the tf_glow, i'll implement that for A3.

@Berry, @Psy
map is so big that the fights don't feel focused
I'm a bit confused right now. The map was called quite small before, both in terms of explosive jumping as well as getting to the cap zone. The only thing that changed gameplay space significantly for this version is the new capture area (and the new path to said capture area.) Isn't the "nonfocused" gameplay kinda a thing that CTF maps do? I'm pretty sure that the gameplay area isn't bigger than per example ctf_landfall. I mean, i respect both of you a lot, so i'm pretty sure you're onto something, but i currently don't understand what and how it makes this map layout different to a map that i'd consider successful for CTF standards.
Sneak edit!
Estimates of playable area. Landfall: 6000*3800. Epicenter: 5800*3500.

@HolySnickerPuffs
One team can cap the other's side exit.
I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean?

@ibex
I think you have way too much health and ammo everywhere
I usually start out with too much health and ammo, then scale it down depending on where the fights happen etc. It might be because i hate not finding health. I'll rewatch the demos once or twice before changing something there.

I have to check the spot-specific feedback tomorrow as i forgot to put the newest version into the dropbox.

Overall, i currently lean towards continuing developing the map, the last test looked like it's worth it.

 

[SnickerPuffs]

@HolySnickerPuffs
One team can cap the other's side exit.
I'm not sure what that's supposed to mean?

Sorry, I'm not the best at spelling during live games.

What I basically meant to say was "One team can camp the other team's side spawn exit."

By this I mean that one team, when pushing into enemy territory, can easily spawncamp the defenders using the side spawn route (pictured below).

 

[DrLambda]

Sorry, I'm not the best at spelling during live games.

What I basically meant to say was "One team can camp the other team's side spawn exit."

By this I mean that one team, when pushing into enemy territory, can easily spawncamp the defenders using the side spawn route (pictured below).

Ah. No problem, i wrote my fair share of weird feedback too

Yeah, i'm still torn of how to do this spawn exit. i really want to have the view from spawn to the spot you're supposed to defend, but i also think that i should give the defenders a height advantage there. I'll think about what to do.

 

[DrLambda]

Changelog

• Changed name to Epicenter
• Replaced RED props in BLU spawn with BLU version
• Raised spawn base height
• Added height advantage to defensive spawn exit
• Replaced tank model with more fitting vehicle
• Reverted back to instant cap (Not worth the hassle with all the bugs it currently has.)
• Added tf_glow to capture vehicles
• Added nobuild to capture zone
• Downsized quite a lot of pickups
• Cubemaps
• Flags respawn if a player tries to bring them into spawn
• Reworked lighting, sky etc to badlands

Known bugs

• tf_glow currently is bugged on engine level, hopefully Valve will fix it soon

Screenshots


Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[DrLambda]

Imp Feedback time. Sadly, Epicenter was played on the US server twice, which i was both unable to join and had no demos available, so i have to take your word for it.

@navy neil 1998 (Again, i don't know the forum name)
lame sightline
(Sightline between mid and a spawn exit)
I don't know how, but i really missed that until now. I can see how that is lame. I'll add some cover to the exit before the next release.

@Cargo_Tokens
There are no team colored landmarks to help guide me
I kinda agree. There are a lot of arrows, but everything else is quite monocolored right now. I think this will come along with the artpass, which i'm currently working on (You can see screenshots in the WIP thread.)

@Hyperion
why dropping the flag kills you
What? I added nothing like that. Are you sure that you don't have the drop flag button bound to "kill" or something?

@MaccyF
health kits all along the rocket jump route
Thing is, most of the map can be considered a "rocketjump route." I already toned down the healthkits by quite a lot, and a lot of it is inside the mid buildings which clearly isn't a rocketjump route. The two kits i can think about are those on mid, behind the rocks, and the single on either to the left or the right of the main entrance to last. I won't consider them to be too problematic right now, but i'll keep an eye on them in future tests.

@Cargo_Tokens , @Acc3ss Violation (No forum name), @Randy Cockburn (same.)
can get stuck between wall and truck
I'm stuck between a truck and a hardplace
i can get stuck right here on the truck hood
Thanks for letting me know, i'll clip accordingly if that is still necessary after the artpass.

@a random wallably (No forum name)
you can get stuck on the signs
I know you probably won't read this, as i wasn't able to link you, but if you do, please let me know which sign. I'm pretty sure they are all nonsolid, except for a few on top of doors in spawn.

@TwistMapper.exe , @The Letter Before A
i like the map!
map nothing i would change
Thank you!

 

[Hyperion]

Yeah it felt very weird but I don't remember even binding kill to anything I already use

 

[DrLambda]

Changelog!

• Artpass!
• Soundscapes!
• A 3D skybox!
• I'm not really happy with the 3d skybox! Send help!
• Minor gameplay changes!
• Map under 15mb!

Credits!
@Crowbar for stripless metal textures
@Void for stencil overlays
@Shmitz for Intel Point Base
Evil knevil & NassimO for Delivery Van

A metric shitton of screenshots!


What i want you to do!
Test! Imp! Play!
Tell me about:

• Misaligned textures!
• Short prop fades!
• Sound errors!
• Things looking weird!
• Clipping errors!

Thanks!

Read the rest of this update entry...