- Dec 15, 2013
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- Thread starter puxorb
- Start date
- Dec 15, 2013
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- Dec 15, 2013
- 531
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- Dec 15, 2013
- 531
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Hey if anyone is good at making attack/defend maps and wants to offer any advice, I'd greatly appreciate it. I've gotten a lot of great feedback but don't really know how to apply it. I'm still a bit of a noob when it comes to the gamemode. Actually, I've never been successful doing any serious map.
- Dec 15, 2013
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- Sep 10, 2016
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Alright, I watched through the demos and read through the feedback and looked at a4, and I'm ready to offer my thoughts:
Firstly, you really haven't had a single good test yet. A1 and A3 both suffered from low playercounts, and A2 suffered from a respawn time bug that would have ruined the experience on any map. Don't be afraid to retest if you get low playercounts.
Retesting is also a good thing to do just to get a large sample size. You can have good rounds and bad rounds on any map. If the teams are that imbalanced, even Upward can suffer from points rolling just because BLU is so good they always win every teamfight. What you need to figure out for your map is the extent of team imbalance it takes for the gameplay to break.
So, if you think a test was totally ruined by terrible team balance, retest until you have a round where you don't feel like that. Sometimes the map is good and bad rounds are just the fault of the server's population, but if nearly every round feels bad, then you can conclude without a doubt that it's your map's fault.
It also helps to have a firm idea of how your map should play, so you can judge when the gameplay is breaking.
You should know ahead of time where RED's going to stand to hold each point (their backward hold), where they're gonna push forward to after winning a fight (their forward hold) and where to place the "BLU lobby" that acts as the limiting factor for how far RED can push forward.
Note that the attack of every point should start with RED controlling the forward hold.
Here is where I place these on a few official points:
I believe it's the responsibility of an A/D mapper to decide where these areas are going to be on their own map, and make changes so that these areas are adhered to if things aren't working out.
That sounds vague, so here's an example - if RED is pushing into, and taking hold of, BLU's lobby area, then it means BLU needs to push through three arenas in a row to take the control point. This is way too hard, so you need to stop RED pushing into BLU's lobby. Normally you'll give BLU a forward spawn very close to the lobby, or if it's the first point, make it so that BLU uses their spawn as the lobby, like I've outlined on Snowycoast A.
Here is where I place these arenas on cp_archways_a4:
Notes: I might have placed the RED forward hold too far forward - what they would want to do is hold the building, but it's so wide that I think that it wouldn't act as a concrete forward hold (it would be too easy for BLU to slip past RED and backcap), and what RED would have to do would be to hold the area outside it.
Notes: BLU spawns too far from point so RED may be able to hold lobby, RED spawns far from point too so point can roll, will go into more depth later
Notes: None
Now, I'm not asking you to stick strictly to these spots. You may well have a very different idea of where RED is going to stand to hold the points, and that's fine. The important thing is that you know exactly where you want these spots, and you look at your demos and suggested changes with respect to that.
For example, if you shorten the distance between BLU spawn and A, won't that make it so RED has no forward hold on A? Or maybe it'll mean you have to rework the building so it's harder for BLU to slip past RED in it, so RED can use it as a forward hold?
Whatever you end up doing, it should respect the lobby/forward hold/backward hold dynamic, since most unfun gameplay in A/D maps comes from points that undermine that dynamic in some way:
Even though it takes BLU a similarly short amount of time (13 seconds) to walk from B to C, I don't see C having as much of a rolling problem. This is because it takes RED much less time to walk to it - only 5 seconds out of spawn!
From there, if we switch up our mentalities and time for the C forward hold area I marked earlier, it takes RED 8 seconds to get to that out of spawn, whereas it takes BLU 8 seconds to get to it from B. This means there's a much better chance of RED getting an immediate forward hold on C, giving them a buffer zone against ubercharges/strong pushes and giving their engies time to set up on the backward hold.
Of course, if too many RED players die during the defense of the B backward hold, then C could still roll. Which is why I recommend instantly respawning RED when B is capped, using game_forcerespawn. Also, you could maybe try putting doors between A and B that take a while to open, like on cp_steel - that way BLU's walk time between A and B is artificially extended, giving RED time to set up. You could also try physically extending the distance between A and B, then giving BLU a forward spawn to attack B.
Note that the attack of every point should start with RED controlling the forward hold.
Here is where I place these on a few official points:
I believe it's the responsibility of an A/D mapper to decide where these areas are going to be on their own map, and make changes so that these areas are adhered to if things aren't working out.
That sounds vague, so here's an example - if RED is pushing into, and taking hold of, BLU's lobby area, then it means BLU needs to push through three arenas in a row to take the control point. This is way too hard, so you need to stop RED pushing into BLU's lobby. Normally you'll give BLU a forward spawn very close to the lobby, or if it's the first point, make it so that BLU uses their spawn as the lobby, like I've outlined on Snowycoast A.
Here is where I place these arenas on cp_archways_a4:
Notes: I might have placed the RED forward hold too far forward - what they would want to do is hold the building, but it's so wide that I think that it wouldn't act as a concrete forward hold (it would be too easy for BLU to slip past RED and backcap), and what RED would have to do would be to hold the area outside it.
Notes: BLU spawns too far from point so RED may be able to hold lobby, RED spawns far from point too so point can roll, will go into more depth later
Notes: None
Now, I'm not asking you to stick strictly to these spots. You may well have a very different idea of where RED is going to stand to hold the points, and that's fine. The important thing is that you know exactly where you want these spots, and you look at your demos and suggested changes with respect to that.
For example, if you shorten the distance between BLU spawn and A, won't that make it so RED has no forward hold on A? Or maybe it'll mean you have to rework the building so it's harder for BLU to slip past RED in it, so RED can use it as a forward hold?
Whatever you end up doing, it should respect the lobby/forward hold/backward hold dynamic, since most unfun gameplay in A/D maps comes from points that undermine that dynamic in some way:
- RED gets to push into BLU's lobby and hold it, so BLU is forced to push through three arenas in a row to capture which is too hard
- There's functionally no forward hold because BLU spawns too close to the control point or there are routes directly from BLU's lobby to the backward hold, so BLU is always attacking the backward hold and one ubercharge will get them the point which is uninteresting and unfun
- One point is too close to the previous point, with RED spawning far away from it, so RED gets to the backward hold at the same time BLU does after the previous point is captured, so RED doesn't get a forward hold and one ubercharge or otherwise good push will get BLU the point with virtually no resistance (a roll)
Even though it takes BLU a similarly short amount of time (13 seconds) to walk from B to C, I don't see C having as much of a rolling problem. This is because it takes RED much less time to walk to it - only 5 seconds out of spawn!
From there, if we switch up our mentalities and time for the C forward hold area I marked earlier, it takes RED 8 seconds to get to that out of spawn, whereas it takes BLU 8 seconds to get to it from B. This means there's a much better chance of RED getting an immediate forward hold on C, giving them a buffer zone against ubercharges/strong pushes and giving their engies time to set up on the backward hold.
Of course, if too many RED players die during the defense of the B backward hold, then C could still roll. Which is why I recommend instantly respawning RED when B is capped, using game_forcerespawn. Also, you could maybe try putting doors between A and B that take a while to open, like on cp_steel - that way BLU's walk time between A and B is artificially extended, giving RED time to set up. You could also try physically extending the distance between A and B, then giving BLU a forward spawn to attack B.
You didn't necessarily ask for it, but here's my own personal feedback:
In general, this map's arenas are very wide, with routes split very far apart. I think that's going to make it too hard and kind of frustrating for RED to hold, because you can't, as a single player, be everywhere at once - at some point, you have to rely on your teammates to not let BLU get past you, so if your teammates are terrible, getting and keeping a forward hold is going to be very hard.
I understand if you disagree with this mentality, but I believe this is the reason why Dustbowl continues to be popular despite its nightmarish chokiness; its areas are constructed to never let BLU slip past RED without a fair fight.
Switch it up a bit. It's fine to have A be difficult to hold like this, but removing some of the flanks for B and C will create natural difficulty progression, and make each point feel unique relative to each other, which makes your map more memorable.
- Dec 15, 2013
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Thanks! This was really helpful. It's going to take me a while to apply each of the things I've learned as this was full of information. I instinctually knew about forward and backward holds just from playing a lot of maps, but had never conceptualized them myself nor had a name for these areas. It should be much easier to balance areas now that I can visualize where teams should be regrouping. Your labeled boxes should help massively in this regard.
I think what you said about B and C is accurate. I could see in the demos that it was difficult to hold B, and that players were taking a while, on both teams (but especially red), to reach it. I actually do have a forcerespawn active after A is capped, to help balance things and to make sure the shared forward spawnroom is purged of red players before blu gets to use it. I'll look into this more, and see if I can apply it better.
Also I see now that C has flanks the reach from Blu's lobby all the way to the point. Which isn't bad but in the future I'll probably need to break the flank route so that they're forced to enter at Red's forward hold, then continue on to the backward hold. Basically making the final archway more of a choke with one side opening, narrowing that entire part of the map. And making a more obvious forward hold for red. Right now its just a depression in the ground before the arch, which isn't exactly inviting to anyone. The small cliff might be good for engineers, but not really anyone else, and it has a flank right behind them which would be impossible to constantly check for spies and other flank classes.
Again, many thanks! This was really helpful. I think for now I just need to test the current version, perhaps a few times. I want to see how my new pre-A area works, since it seems to follow the standard better than previous versions.
I think what you said about B and C is accurate. I could see in the demos that it was difficult to hold B, and that players were taking a while, on both teams (but especially red), to reach it. I actually do have a forcerespawn active after A is capped, to help balance things and to make sure the shared forward spawnroom is purged of red players before blu gets to use it. I'll look into this more, and see if I can apply it better.
Also I see now that C has flanks the reach from Blu's lobby all the way to the point. Which isn't bad but in the future I'll probably need to break the flank route so that they're forced to enter at Red's forward hold, then continue on to the backward hold. Basically making the final archway more of a choke with one side opening, narrowing that entire part of the map. And making a more obvious forward hold for red. Right now its just a depression in the ground before the arch, which isn't exactly inviting to anyone. The small cliff might be good for engineers, but not really anyone else, and it has a flank right behind them which would be impossible to constantly check for spies and other flank classes.
Again, many thanks! This was really helpful. I think for now I just need to test the current version, perhaps a few times. I want to see how my new pre-A area works, since it seems to follow the standard better than previous versions.
- Dec 15, 2013
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puxorb updated cp_archways with a new update entry:
a5: The Big Chungus Update (Feat. Big Chungus)
Read the rest of this update entry...
a5: The Big Chungus Update (Feat. Big Chungus)
The big chungus update, because I've made BIG changes to the map overall.
-Entirely new B and C areas
-New routes
-New RED forward spawn
-Minor pickups changes
-Minor spawntime adjustments
-Minor lighting changes
-Clipping pass
-Big Chungus
Read the rest of this update entry...
