CP Backline [Deleted]

[FishyUberMuffin]

Backline - Many places small map

This is a smallish map that takes you to three different places in the world of TF2. Brickland, Egypt, and Cobblestone. View attachment 48697 View attachment 48698 View attachment 48699 View attachment 48700 View attachment 48701 View attachment 48702 View attachment 48703 View attachment 48704 View attachment 48705 View attachment 48706

 

[FRAЭR]

That pic is lil bit strange , isn't it?

 

[FishyUberMuffin]

That pic is lil bit strange , isn't it?

nope, I put these health packs there because I did not want to put a resupply cubanite due to balancing

 

[Crowbar]

So you say that that is balanced, instead.

 

[FRAЭR]

nope, I put these health packs there because I did not want to put a resupply cubanite due to balancing

Is this place a respawn room or not?

 

[FRAЭR]

And why do you need to put resupply boxes (usually they are only for respawn rooms)?

 

[FishyUberMuffin]

So you say that that is balanced, instead.

Yes because if I had to put a R.S.C right by a door then that will give blue team to much of a advantage. So I the many health packs act like a R.S.C expect it gives no ammo. This makes it balance.

 

[FishyUberMuffin]

Is this place a respawn room or not?

It's the blue base however if I had to put a R.S.C right by a door then that will give blue team to much of a advantage. So I the many health packs act like a R.S.C expect it gives no ammo. This makes it balance.

 

[Da Spud Lord]

This is weird... I mean, why not just put a resupply cabinet here? This is in Blu's spawn, after all.

EDIT: I just saw this post:

Yes because if I had to put a R.S.C right by a door then that will give blue team to much of a advantage. So I the many health packs act like a R.S.C expect it gives no ammo. This makes it balance.

Don't worry about that. Having ammo there won't give Blu too much of an advantage, in fact not having ammo in that section for Blu will cause Blu players to run out of ammo more frequently, and give Red players an advantage as they have their spawn right there with a resupply cabinet and constant supply of ammo. This will especially impact heavies, pyros, demos, engies, and spies, who chew through ammo/metal/cloak quickly and rely on a decent supply of ammo/metal/cloak to stay in the fight. Perhaps a better solution would just be to move each team's spawn rooms further away from each other.


This is a very long spawn room.


Perhaps extend your spawn room trigger to fill the hallways, it's not clear that this is where it ends. I know there's a door there, but the door never closes after it opens. Is that supposed to happen?


This is what I see right after stepping outside of Blu's spawn. A wide open area, perfect for snipers and absolutely no other class. And Red's spawn is right in front of Blu's spawn. Red team has close by access to infinite ammo (perfect for engies, bad for everyone on Blu), while Blu has to walk back and forth through a long winding hallway to get ammo. Snipers + spawncamping do not make for a fun map. At least soldiers can't get a height advantage over Blu players exiting spawn...

...Oh, they can.
Perhaps clip off the roof of Red's spawn, or add something to allow non-soldier classes to get up here.


At least Red's spawn looks pretty.


You've got some overlapping textures here.


L O N G S M A L L H A L L W A Y S. Your map is full of them, they are LONG, they are SMALL, and they are UNAVOIDABLE. In fact, your map seems to suffer from room-hallway-room syndrome. This is bad level design. Small hallways act as a chokepoint, bunching players together and making them more susceptible to splash damage.


This roof on both point A and B gives soldiers an unfair advantage, perhaps clip it off. Also, that platform that the control point is on is awfully thin. Perhaps make it wider, otherwise Red soldiers up on this roof can simply push Blu players off when they try to cap.


Also, the underside of the cap point base prop model is see-through, which looks weird when looking under it.


The platforms for all 3 control points are pretty high up. Even without the aforementioned roof, Red has a powerful height advantage over Blu attackers, and once Blu pushes up onto this platform, Red players on the ground will have a hard time stopping Blu from capturing the point. Also, the drop is definitely greater than 256 HU, and any drop from above 256 HU will cause fall damage, so 256 HU drops should be used sparingly. That's not to say that they should never be used- some maps make good use of them, such as Badwater- but you should consider how they will impact gameplay.


These doors are broken. After exiting, you can't re-enter, as the trigger areas for these two doors are reversed.


Perhaps adjust this Blu respawn room visualizer so the textures don't overlap so much.

EDIT: Another thing I noticed while playtesting with bots (because I'm bored):

You can stand above Blu spawn. Talk about overpowered. I think you have absolutely no concerns when it comes to Blu having too much of an advantage with a resupply locker there; Red is already incredibly overpowered.

Don't get discouraged. Despite all of this criticism, you are improving. See this:

Your first map was the equivalent of the beginner map with elements of intermediate. And that's not a bad thing, we've all been there. This map is the equivalent of the intermediate map. Keep working and eventually you'll get to advanced and even expert. Study up on Valve maps. Figure out which ones are good and which ones aren't, what works in those maps and what doesn't. Figure out why Dustbowl is a bad map and avoid those things. Figure out why Badwater is a good map and try to apply those principles to your map. And although it may seem like you have a long and hard road in front of you, remember this quote:
"The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."
-Some famous p̶h̶l p̶h̶i̶l̶s̶o̶p̶h p̶h̶i̶l̶o̶s̶o̶s̶o̶p̶h really smart guy

 

[FishyUberMuffin]

This is weird... I mean, why not just put a resupply cabinet here? This is in Blu's spawn, after all.

EDIT: I just saw this post:

Don't worry about that. Having ammo there won't give Blu too much of an advantage, in fact not having ammo in that section for Blu will cause Blu players to run out of ammo more frequently, and give Red players an advantage as they have their spawn right there with a resupply cabinet and constant supply of ammo. This will especially impact heavies, pyros, demos, engies, and spies, who chew through ammo/metal/cloak quickly and rely on a decent supply of ammo/metal/cloak to stay in the fight. Perhaps a better solution would just be to move each team's spawn rooms further away from each other.


This is a very long spawn room.


Perhaps extend your spawn room trigger to fill the hallways, it's not clear that this is where it ends. I know there's a door there, but the door never closes after it opens. Is that supposed to happen?


This is what I see right after stepping outside of Blu's spawn. A wide open area, perfect for snipers and absolutely no other class. And Red's spawn is right in front of Blu's spawn. Red team has close by access to infinite ammo (perfect for engies, bad for everyone on Blu), while Blu has to walk back and forth through a long winding hallway to get ammo. Snipers + spawncamping do not make for a fun map. At least soldiers can't get a height advantage over Blu players exiting spawn...

...Oh, they can.
Perhaps clip off the roof of Red's spawn, or add something to allow non-soldier classes to get up here.


At least Red's spawn looks pretty.


You've got some overlapping textures here.


L O N G S M A L L H A L L W A Y S. Your map is full of them, they are LONG, they are SMALL, and they are UNAVOIDABLE. In fact, your map seems to suffer from room-hallway-room syndrome. This is bad level design. Small hallways act as a chokepoint, bunching players together and making them more susceptible to splash damage.


This roof on both point A and B gives soldiers an unfair advantage, perhaps clip it off. Also, that platform that the control point is on is awfully thin. Perhaps make it wider, otherwise Red soldiers up on this roof can simply push Blu players off when they try to cap.


Also, the underside of the cap point base prop model is see-through, which looks weird when looking under it.


The platforms for all 3 control points are pretty high up. Even without the aforementioned roof, Red has a powerful height advantage over Blu attackers, and once Blu pushes up onto this platform, Red players on the ground will have a hard time stopping Blu from capturing the point. Also, the drop is definitely greater than 256 HU, and any drop from above 256 HU will cause fall damage, so 256 HU drops should be used sparingly. That's not to say that they should never be used- some maps make good use of them, such as Badwater- but you should consider how they will impact gameplay.


These doors are broken. After exiting, you can't re-enter, as the trigger areas for these two doors are reversed.


Perhaps adjust this Blu respawn room visualizer so the textures don't overlap so much.

EDIT: Another thing I noticed while playtesting with bots (because I'm bored):

You can stand above Blu spawn. Talk about overpowered. I think you have absolutely no concerns when it comes to Blu having too much of an advantage with a resupply locker there; Red is already incredibly overpowered.

Don't get discouraged. Despite all of this criticism, you are improving. See this:

Your first map was the equivalent of the beginner map with elements of intermediate. And that's not a bad thing, we've all been there. This map is the equivalent of the intermediate map. Keep working and eventually you'll get to advanced and even expert. Study up on Valve maps. Figure out which ones are good and which ones aren't, what works in those maps and what doesn't. Figure out why Dustbowl is a bad map and avoid those things. Figure out why Badwater is a good map and try to apply those principles to your map. And although it may seem like you have a long and hard road in front of you, remember this quote:
"The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."
-Some famous p̶h̶l p̶h̶i̶l̶s̶o̶p̶h p̶h̶i̶l̶o̶s̶o̶s̶o̶p̶h really smart guy

Hello,
Thanks for the feedback. I am just going to respond to your points.

1. The reason for the long spawn room is to make sure I can have two exit points for the Blue team to stop with the spawn camping.
2. I just forgot to increase the room trigger so that I will fix that.
3. I will put another R.S.C to cut down on the walking. I wanted the spawn to be out in the open, so not everybody is cramped while they walk out of spawn. I also need a big area to have the 360 exits. This is the thing that makes maps their own thing. So this map has a 360 exit.
4. The blue soldier jumping on Red spawn room is to offset the big area that blue has to walk through.
5. I don't know how to fix that texture problem, but I will fix it in the next update.
6.The B side of the hallways is from the tunnel from dustbowl and pl goldrush. Two valve maps. Many people said for me to look at valve maps and I did. I have the hallway from Goldrush and dustbowl, so I have included in the map.
7. The control points are modeled after the control point building of Harvest, another valve map. I am doing what the people are saying and looking at valve maps.
8. The problem with the high control points was not a problem when I played the maps with bots. I could still kill the red team when they were high up. I just used the back routes that are in the map that connects each of the control point rooms together. Like in Gravel Pit another valve map.
9. I just need to fix those doors, and you have so many other doors to chose from. It is not bad.

People are always saying look at valve maps, and I am looking at them. This map is just a big mesh of valve maps. For example. B hallways from goldrush. The control point houses are from Harvest; The A point has a ditch like dustbowl. The blue spawn is like Hightower with its long halls for a spawn room. And of course, the back routes to each of the control points is from Gravel Pit.

 

[Da Spud Lord]

1. The reason for the long spawn room is to make sure I can have two exit points for the Blue team to stop with the spawn camping.

It still can probably be shortened.

3.I also need a big area to have the 360 exits. This is the thing that makes maps their own thing. So this map has a 360 exit.

There are better ways of executing the "360 exit" than this. Right now, that area of the map is a giant sniper HEAVEN for Red. You got a large, unobstructed area, infinite health and ammo with the resupply lockers nearby, and cover to duck behind in the form of Red's spawn. Add cover. Add buildings. Add walls. Add platforms. Add hills. Add height variation. Add flank routes. Come up with a creative layout for each space that makes that map, and each subsequent space, fun to play on. A single idea doesn't make a map; to make a map, you need lots of ideas for each area. (And don't just randomly chuck props around.) If you want to make a good map, you need to make something that looks less like beginner and intermediate and something that looks more like advanced and expert. Making boxes and hallways doesn't make a good map.

5. I don't know how to fix that texture problem, but I will fix it in the next update.

It's caused by having two brushes overlapping so that one of their faces is aligned and facing the same direction:

6.The B side of the hallways is from the tunnel from dustbowl and pl goldrush. Two valve maps. Many people said for me to look at valve maps and I did. I have the hallway from Goldrush and dustbowl, so I have included in the map.

Dustbowl is a bad map, and Goldrush is payload Dustbowl. I'm not saying the entirety of these maps are bad, but there are certain areas of the map that are bad.
Let's look at Dustbowl:

Notice how the hallways are short? And that there are multiple pathways that give players options on what path to take instead of forcing everyone down the same narrow chokepoint. And there is health and ammo in/near these tunnels that allow players to recoup lost health and ammo, instead of starving them?

7. The control points are modeled after the control point building of Harvest, another valve map. I am doing what the people are saying and looking at valve maps.

I'm not sure how you got "thin elevated platform with only 2 thin steep ramps going up" from Harvest:

Simply borrowing from other maps doesn't always work; you need to apply those ideas in a way that makes the map work.

8. The problem with the high control points was not a problem when I played the maps with bots. I could still kill the red team when they were high up. I just used the back routes that are in the map that connects each of the control point rooms together. Like in Gravel Pit another valve map.

The tower at the last point of Gravelpit is a bad addition to an otherwise good map. And don't use bots to balance your map; bots are stupid and a poor representation of class roles and human behavior. A map balanced around bots will play poorly with humans.

People are always saying look at valve maps, and I am looking at them.

Not closely enough. Your map has almost no flank routes, the tunnels are long, cramped chokepoints with no routes around them, and the center of the map is a sniper haven with no cover and, again, no flanking options. Your map is very boring and lacking in terms of layout. Just compare the layout of your map (left) with the layout of Gravelpit (right):

See the difference? Yours is boring and blocky; it has very few paths between areas with little viable flanking options. It is a very diverse map with plenty of differences between points, instead of copypasting each point. Gravelpit has tons of routes, including flank routes, between areas. Each point has its own unique layout. And nowhere in the map is there a giant sniper box.

This map is just a big mesh of valve maps.

Which Valve map put Red's spawn in the middle of a giant sniper haven box right in front of Blu's spawn again? I must have missed it.

For example. B hallways from goldrush. The control point houses are from Harvest; The A point has a ditch like dustbowl. The blue spawn is like Hightower with its long halls for a spawn room. And of course, the back routes to each of the control points is from Gravel Pit.

Here's the problem: You poorly implemented... most... of those ideas. The hallways to point B are TOO long and serve to make the player bored of walking, only to get killed by a sticky trap because there wasn't enough room or flank routes to go around it. The point A ditch is fine, I guess, but not thought out enough. It's more random than thoughtful. The Blu spawn is too long, again, and makes the player bored of walking, just like the long hallways to point B. The roof area above each point is only accessible by soldiers and a very skilled demoman- the roof is so high you have to perform multiple rocket jumps to get up- while on Harvest, all classes except heavy can get up on the cp building roof. Making an area that is only accessible to 1 or 2 classes isn't usually a good thing unless you can balance it well. And the back routes to the control points are good, but there's not any flanking options anywhere else in the map.

EDIT: Added some missing images that I forgot to include.

 

[FishyUberMuffin]

It still can probably be shortened.


There are better ways of executing the "360 exit" than this. Right now, that area of the map is a giant sniper HEAVEN for Red. You got a large, unobstructed area, infinite health and ammo with the resupply lockers nearby, and cover to duck behind in the form of Red's spawn. Add cover. Add buildings. Add walls. Add platforms. Add hills. Add height variation. Add flank routes. Come up with a creative layout for each space that makes that map, and each subsequent space, fun to play on. A single idea doesn't make a map; to make a map, you need lots of ideas for each area. (And don't just randomly chuck props around.) If you want to make a good map, you need to make something that looks less like beginner and intermediate and something that looks more like advanced and expert. Making boxes and hallways doesn't make a good map.


It's caused by having two brushes overlapping so that one of their faces is aligned and facing the same direction:


Dustbowl is a bad map, and Goldrush is payload Dustbowl. I'm not saying the entirety of these maps are bad, but there are certain areas of the map that are bad.
Let's look at Dustbowl:

Notice how the hallways are short? And that there are multiple pathways that give players options on what path to take instead of forcing everyone down the same narrow chokepoint. And there is health and ammo in/near these tunnels that allow players to recoup lost health and ammo, instead of starving them?


I'm not sure how you got "thin elevated platform with only 2 thin steep ramps going up" from Harvest:

Simply borrowing from other maps doesn't always work; you need to apply those ideas in a way that makes the map work.


The tower at the last point of Gravelpit is a bad addition to an otherwise good map. And don't use bots to balance your map; bots are stupid and a poor representation of class roles and human behavior. A map balanced around bots will play poorly with humans.


Not closely enough. Your map has almost no flank routes, the tunnels are long, cramped chokepoints with no routes around them, and the center of the map is a sniper haven with no cover and, again, no flanking options. Your map is very boring and lacking in terms of layout. Just compare the layout of your map (left) with the layout of Gravelpit (right):

See the difference? Yours is boring and blocky; it has very few paths between areas with little viable flanking options. It is a very diverse map with plenty of differences between points, instead of copypasting each point. Gravelpit has tons of routes, including flank routes, between areas. Each point has its own unique layout. And nowhere in the map is there a giant sniper box.


Which Valve map put Red's spawn in the middle of a giant sniper haven box right in front of Blu's spawn again? I must have missed it.


Here's the problem: You poorly implemented... most... of those ideas. The hallways to point B are TOO long and serve to make the player bored of walking, only to get killed by a sticky trap because there wasn't enough room or flank routes to go around it. The point A ditch is fine, I guess, but not thought out enough. It's more random than thoughtful. The Blu spawn is too long, again, and makes the player bored of walking, just like the long hallways to point B. The roof area above each point is only accessible by soldiers and a very skilled demoman- the roof is so high you have to perform multiple rocket jumps to get up- while on Harvest, all classes except heavy can get up on the cp building roof. Making an area that is only accessible to 1 or 2 classes isn't usually a good thing unless you can balance it well. And the back routes to the control points are good, but there's not any flanking options anywhere else in the map.

EDIT: Added some missing images that I forgot to include.

5. I know how to fix texture mashing. What i meant by i dont know how to fix it is, what was casuesing the clipping. I didnt know if it was there something underneath it or there was a nothing
6. I will make the hallway shorter.
7. We're the Harvest comes in is the open roof building that is rectangular that holds the cp.
8. Well that is the fast way for me to test.

What maps should I look at because I think all valve maps are good.

 

[FishyUberMuffin]

- Added new lights
- Added wood planks over the roof of Red spawn
- Added a ramp and a bridge to get on Red spawn
- Added two towers to shorten the sniper sightlines
- Added a new death pit
- Updated Blue Spawn to be closer to the doors so players don't have to walk so much
- Updated all three control points
- Updated the hallways to be shorter
- Updated the back roaughts to be taller and sunk into the ground
- Updated the wood planks on the control point to be wider
- Updated the ground outside of red spawn to have a sink hole
- Updated the signs around the map
- Updated the roofs of all the points to be one big piece of roof and not have holes in the roofs
- Fixed the red spawn doors not working
- Removed the health kits in the blue spawn and replaced them with an R.S.C
- Removed the door inside of blue base

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[FishyUberMuffin]

This is weird... I mean, why not just put a resupply cabinet here? This is in Blu's spawn, after all.

EDIT: I just saw this post:

Don't worry about that. Having ammo there won't give Blu too much of an advantage, in fact not having ammo in that section for Blu will cause Blu players to run out of ammo more frequently, and give Red players an advantage as they have their spawn right there with a resupply cabinet and constant supply of ammo. This will especially impact heavies, pyros, demos, engies, and spies, who chew through ammo/metal/cloak quickly and rely on a decent supply of ammo/metal/cloak to stay in the fight. Perhaps a better solution would just be to move each team's spawn rooms further away from each other.


This is a very long spawn room.


Perhaps extend your spawn room trigger to fill the hallways, it's not clear that this is where it ends. I know there's a door there, but the door never closes after it opens. Is that supposed to happen?


This is what I see right after stepping outside of Blu's spawn. A wide open area, perfect for snipers and absolutely no other class. And Red's spawn is right in front of Blu's spawn. Red team has close by access to infinite ammo (perfect for engies, bad for everyone on Blu), while Blu has to walk back and forth through a long winding hallway to get ammo. Snipers + spawncamping do not make for a fun map. At least soldiers can't get a height advantage over Blu players exiting spawn...

...Oh, they can.
Perhaps clip off the roof of Red's spawn, or add something to allow non-soldier classes to get up here.


At least Red's spawn looks pretty.


You've got some overlapping textures here.


L O N G S M A L L H A L L W A Y S. Your map is full of them, they are LONG, they are SMALL, and they are UNAVOIDABLE. In fact, your map seems to suffer from room-hallway-room syndrome. This is bad level design. Small hallways act as a chokepoint, bunching players together and making them more susceptible to splash damage.


This roof on both point A and B gives soldiers an unfair advantage, perhaps clip it off. Also, that platform that the control point is on is awfully thin. Perhaps make it wider, otherwise Red soldiers up on this roof can simply push Blu players off when they try to cap.


Also, the underside of the cap point base prop model is see-through, which looks weird when looking under it.


The platforms for all 3 control points are pretty high up. Even without the aforementioned roof, Red has a powerful height advantage over Blu attackers, and once Blu pushes up onto this platform, Red players on the ground will have a hard time stopping Blu from capturing the point. Also, the drop is definitely greater than 256 HU, and any drop from above 256 HU will cause fall damage, so 256 HU drops should be used sparingly. That's not to say that they should never be used- some maps make good use of them, such as Badwater- but you should consider how they will impact gameplay.


These doors are broken. After exiting, you can't re-enter, as the trigger areas for these two doors are reversed.


Perhaps adjust this Blu respawn room visualizer so the textures don't overlap so much.

EDIT: Another thing I noticed while playtesting with bots (because I'm bored):

You can stand above Blu spawn. Talk about overpowered. I think you have absolutely no concerns when it comes to Blu having too much of an advantage with a resupply locker there; Red is already incredibly overpowered.

Don't get discouraged. Despite all of this criticism, you are improving. See this:

Your first map was the equivalent of the beginner map with elements of intermediate. And that's not a bad thing, we've all been there. This map is the equivalent of the intermediate map. Keep working and eventually you'll get to advanced and even expert. Study up on Valve maps. Figure out which ones are good and which ones aren't, what works in those maps and what doesn't. Figure out why Dustbowl is a bad map and avoid those things. Figure out why Badwater is a good map and try to apply those principles to your map. And although it may seem like you have a long and hard road in front of you, remember this quote:
"The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."
-Some famous p̶h̶l p̶h̶i̶l̶s̶o̶p̶h p̶h̶i̶l̶o̶s̶o̶s̶o̶p̶h really smart guy

I updated the map with everything that you told me was wrong, and i have fixed it in the update.

 

[FishyUberMuffin]

- Added new path to point B
- Added two new spawn exits that go to A and B
- Added water to Point A
- Added new health kits
- Added new signs around the map
- Added guard rails to the death pit
- Updated the first pathway to Point B to rework it
- Updated some textures
- Updated the ramp to get to the death pit so you can walk up to the death pit

Read the rest of this update entry...

 

[FishyUberMuffin]

- Updated the wall in front on blue exit to be one step over to cover up the cobblestone texture
- Reworked Point B
- Reworked the outside of Red Base
- Fixed clipping and holes in the ground
- Fixed the new two spawn doors not working

Read the rest of this update entry...