Hi,
I just watched the demo for a3, and I have a fair amount to say.
Firstly I wanna mention how I've always been fascinated with maps that try to imitate the gameplay style of cp_dustbowl -
here's evidence!
The map I just linked, as well as a couple of others, inspired me to make
a map of my own which was my most commercially successful map yet - though it still failed to make me e'en a single dollar.
And that's basically why I'm posting here.
Firstly, let's examine each of the three rounds in the demo:
1)
7v7, half of BLU spends half the round AFK then complains about how spawncamping is too easy
2)
7v7, absolute steamroll, RED fails to win even a single fight - proof that the RED team from last round had vastly better players than the BLU team and both rounds were likely an outlier
3)
still 7v7, but a bit more balanced as the teams have scrambled - A is taken after a few brief skirmishes, B is taken very quickly afterwards - notably both captures are cheesed by a BLU scout before all RED team members are even dead which is not what you want usually
These three rounds are very revelatory, in a way that goes beyond what the feedback would suggest.
Most importantly, it reveals that this playtest shouldn't be taken as gospel - it was overall a low playercount, the first two rounds were obviously unbalanced, and since the third round was right after a scramble, it gives you no way to measure the relative skill levels of the two teams, which usually requires two rounds - one on BLU and one on RED.
Still, I think that some changes could be made based on the results of this playtest:
- Better re-entry for RED into the A arena after dying
- Generally more involved forward hold (area directly outside BLU's spawn) for A
- Instant respawn for RED after A is capped, so it's harder for B to be a steamroll
- Generally stronger defensive positions for RED
- More areas for Snipers
Why am I recommending buffs for RED after a playtest where everyone was complaining about BLU having a hard time?
At the risk of letting the inner Australian crackhead out - one thing that doesn't get talked about enough is that playtesters on A/D maps are incredibly biased. They'll complain if BLU is having a hard time, but they won't say a word if it's a total steamroll and RED is having a miserable time. You know that map that got into the game recently, cp_hardwood? That's basically purpose-built for BLU to steamroll it every round. If RED wins, it was a fluke or team imbalance - especially if they win before C.
It's completely fine to let RED win every once in a while, especially on points that are before the final one.
You want BLU to win approx. 50% of the time.
For an A/D map, the combined probability of BLU winning the map overall is equal to the probability of them capturing each point, multiplied together.
So, for your map with its 2 control points, if the probability of them capping A is 80% (0.8), and the probability of them capping B is 70% (0.7), the probability of them winning overall = 0.8 * 0.7 = 0.56 = 56%.
So, you should aim for RED to win on A in 2 out of every 10 rounds, and win on B in 3 out of every 10 rounds.
This is WITH team-imbalanced rounds included.
There are very few A/D or PL points in TF2 that RED will win on 70% of the time. Most points in the game will be captured in 80-95% of rounds.
So, for a map with only 2 points to work, unless you plan to build a second stage, it'd be advisable to start making your points
brutally difficult.
Before I launch into that, a quick review of the changes made in A4:
This new exit is profoundly unhelpful, since it goes to the exact same place as the other exit.
The problem was always that RED could stand in one place and watch all of BLU's spawn exits without moving, as MegapiemanPHD was alluding to in his post.
Also, one-way glass is a pussy's solution to a non-existent problem. Have your glass two-way or don't have it at all.
These shipping containers are pretty clever, since they provide BLU a way to aggress the point without being seen by the upper building.
Now, for my suggestions for what SHOULD change going forward:
Sniper playground on A
Most people would immediately baulk at the idea of letting Snipers have fun in a Dustbowl-styled map, but the truth is that you can do it - you just have to do it smartly, and keep them separate from all the other classes.
This way, the Snipers can have fun without preventing the other classes from having fun. It's also generally true that adding Sniper playgrounds will make your map more fun for Spies, since the Sniper playgrounds will be a disused area of the map where the Spies aren't likely to get caught sneaking around.
Here's a schematic:
In general, it'd be a good idea to make heavy use of displacements and rock props in the sniper playground. Think the ground above the tunnel on Upward B.
The B point of your map actually seems pretty good at giving Snipers a place to play without them interfering with the rest of the team. Well done!
RED buffs on A
There are various minor gripes I have with RED gameplay on A.
("this doorway" in the orange text means the orange doorway, while "the doorway" in the red text also means the orange doorway and NOT the new red doorway. Sorry if this is confusing.)
Since the map is a straight line, RED takes a very long time to walk to A after respawning:
This is probably part of the reason RED spawns so close to B - so that their walk to A is also shorter.
But it's still pretty long - especially when you compare it to BLU's incredibly short walk. When you have BLU spawn close to a control point, it becomes necessary for you to also spawn RED close to that control point, if you don't want to force RED to build a teleporter to compete (not fun).
So if you restructured the map's basic layout to be more like this:
You could add a shortcut to A out of RED spawn (marked in orange) that closes after A is capped, similarly to Dustbowl Stage 3.
This task may seem too arduous to be worth considering, but I promise you it's worth it - a shortcut will essentially be a magic design tool that allows you to set RED's walk time to A to be whatever you want, without affecting their walk time to B.
The only rounds where B was played were either insane steamrolls or cheesy Scout-captures, so I don't have a lot to go off, but it seems so far like it's mostly decent and won't need much changing. This also includes the area between A and B.
Hopefully you give these changes serious consideration, because I believe they would make the map substantially more fun for both teams.
I may be back in future to recommend ways to beef up A or B's difficulty, since I haven't touched on that too much here.
Make sure to reply if you have any questions!
EDIT:
I forgot to mention what I meant by "instant respawn after A is captured".
There's an entity in TF2 called game_forcerespawn.
If you place one in your map, and name it, you can send it the "ForceTeamRespawn 2" input to instantly respawn all dead RED players.
This is very valuable to do from a team_control_point that BLU has just captured, since it means that RED will be instantly ready to start setting up a defense on the point afterwards.
To prevent BLU from waiting until after the point is capped to kill RED and thereby negating the instant respawn, I like to send this output several times after a point is captured - once with a delay of 0 seconds, once with a delay of 2 seconds, then 4, 6, 8 and 10.
