CTF Atrophy b4

[lockitup]

Okay I just played bomb factory last night, and this gave me an idea.

What if you turned the intel into a bomb that explodes in something like 3 minutes from when it is picked up. If the bomb is dropped it explodes before it returns. This would hopefully stop some teams from holding the intel, especially close to their own sentries because it would blow them up in due time. The downside to this obviously is whatever team takes the intel first is going to lose in a standoff and on top of this their payload will not be as close. So this leads me into silly suggestion #2:

Have a 5-6 bomb timer on the intel. Make the scenario of the map, you must diffuse the enemy bomb or something like that. Both bombs start ticking at the same time, and explode at the same time. It should take about 3 minutes (possibly increase payload speed for this) for the payload to reach the front of its course. And the remaining 3 minutes should be time allowed for teams to capture intel at the minimum distance. If both teams have intel after 5-6 minutes is up then the bomb explodes and the payload is reset. However if you capture, you also benefit from the payload being reset, but any sentries you had near the payload are destroyed by the bomb.

Does this type of idea fit your map? Also I'm not sure if I like the new sniper restricted boards you added. I think they cover up too much. But thats only my opinion.

 

[Zwiffle]

This is a map for competitive play; not in the sense of 6v6 but in the sense of competition occurring throughout. I believe it works well in pubs once everyone has the hang of things, but people tend to lower their expectations of teamwork in pubs. Guess what: you need an uber to get the flag back. A single uber is the -bottom line- of my expectations for a team. If you can't manage that you don't deserve to win. Your definition of dynamic is flawed; constant caps are in reality no more interesting than never capping: the value of each cap is lowered to the point of being not worth contention, especially in a pub where the end victory's importance is negligible.

Dynamic in a map is when each class has a role that fluctuates constantly; defense moving up with the cart and then back again as caps happen; defense gathering about the flag carrier to protect them near the capture zone; fast classes used to run in and nab the flag, but heavy classes preferred for penetrating the defense to steal back their own flag.

I think there's been a bit if a miscommunication. I never gave a definition of dynamic, and if I had to give a loose definition it would be similar to yours. To be clear, what I meant by 'dynamic' was a game that didn't focus on camping, which is the unfortunate result of the mechanic. That would require that the areas in your map, specifically the 'spire' area, weren't so easy to camp. Even with an uber, it would be hard to break a defensible position in that area because there is basically one route to attack: up the hill.

Soldiers/demos/scouts can get up the secondary route, but the hallway is basically a meat grinder, and going the long way around is dangerous because of the proximity to the spawn, so medic support is limited if nonexistent in that path.

And while ubers are designed to break stalemates, that isn't always the case as the defending team has just as much chance to pop an uber (and later) than the offensive team, driving off the offense. Not to mention the flag bearer has an easy means to escape down that second route if it looks like they could catch him.

I guess all I really meant to get across was how easy it was to camp once you have the flag, which completely negated the cart mechanic which you stated was designed to prevent stalemates. It's like you might as well just scrap the cart mechanic and place each flag on the spire, because that's basically how the map plays - 1.) Got flag? Yes -> 2.) Does enemy have our flag? Yes -> 3.) Camp until we can cap the flag -> 4.) Cap flag.

The problem I experienced was both teams got to step 3, and only after a very long time did one side get to step 4, and then the process repeated.

I think really if you want to keep that mechanic, you would need to redo the easily defensible areas so that there is at least a decent flank.

Essentially the difficulty and team work in capture the flag, at least to me, should be to break into your opponent's base and get out with the flag. Right now with the cart mechanic and the 'sit on the flag' mechanic the easy part is getting the enemy's flag, the hard part is to get them to drop it. It seems a bit backwards to me.

Now admittedly, I don't think I explained myself as best as I could have and these are my initial impressions, but most everyone agreed it felt awkward to play the way it was.

 

[The_Ulf]

Okay I just played bomb factory last night, and this gave me an idea.

Good lord, people are still playing that? :O
Now I feel even more guilty for taking so long to get a new release out...

Anyway - Mangy, if you do switch to anything explodey, note that times like 3 minutes feel oh so much longer in game than you'd think. I'm still debating whether or not a mere 45 seconds is too long for Bomb Factory.

 

[Masakari]

I loved the concept of the map, the design is great, but Zwiffle has the right idea - this map actually makes more stalemates than normal CTF.

This again may be something with pubbers, but when people have a flag and they can't capture it, instinct is to turtle until such a time that they can capture it. In this case, they'll stay by the closed door with a small group protecting them and wait until other people kill the person on the enemy team with the flag.

I don't know how you could implement it, but if instead of separate capture points you had one sole capture zone located in the middle and got rid of the carts, you could certainly reduce turtling to some degree. Of course, the problem with that is that you've then thrown the whole cart thing to the side, and that seems like one of the big features you were promoting in the map.

 

[Flame]

you guys are playing it wrong if you think it creates more stalemates than normal ctf.

maps about as long as badlands yard... if you cant find a way into the enemy base get a medic and do it. maps amazing.

 

[ScorpioUprising]

Not gonna lie, I like the map as is. I do, however, find the "THIS IS JUST THE WAY THE MAP IS YOUR DUMB FOR NOT GETTING IT!" attitude a bit alarming. Your making a new gametype that differs from how the traditional one works, that people have been taught to play: you should expect some guff IMO, and not act like everyone else playing your map is a complete idiot.

That being said, I think Masakari had it (somewhat) correct. If you put a single capture point, rather than two separate ones, then both teams have to come to the same place with the intel, thus avoiding the whole turtling issue (which I assume is the reason for the carts in the first place?).

 

[PMAvers]

We played several rounds of Atrophy b4 tonight, full 12v12 teams.

A little bit of confusion with the whole "can't cap unless your flag's at home" thing at first... but, man, once it clicked, there were some fantastic games.

 

[lockitup]

Could you possibly add a chalkboard with the map rules in the spawn room visible whenever teams spawn? Shouldnt be much of an addition but should help perhaps for new people playing the map? just a suggestion.

 

[UKCS-Alias]

Yesterday on UKCS we tested this map in the worst case situation (16 vs 16 Instant respawn)... I had to say the system is confusing in the start but the map played realy well. There should be an indicator that the capture area is locked when the flag is taken.

A workarround that i would suggest is to show 2 CPs on the hud also and have them show locked when both teams have the flag. Also, a decal at the capture doors mentioning they are locked because of that is welcome... When people are confused why its locked they can easily read it. In that case the cps on the hud arent realy needed.

Thats however the reason why the map didnt pass the ukcs test though. People got confused for the first 5 to 10 minutes which is just too long. They did like the moving cart system.

 

[UFO]

I stuck on the tree:
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/3131/ctfatrophyb40003.jpg

Little gap in spawnroom's corner (at least BLU):
http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7935/ctfatrophyb40000.jpg

 

[MangyCarface]

This map is way cooler than wildfire J: I wish I could have submitted it as well...

 

[Vilepickle]

cooler than wildfire

8)

 

[LeSwordfish]

i played this recently. i really enjoyed it, once we cot past the strident dickhead announcing you needed to return the flag to the cart to cap. i picked up on the "no cap without intel" straightaway.

and the water was sort of annoying as pyro... but i cant complain, i got a domination with the homewrecker in there.

 

[MangyCarface]

I'm going to be taking one final look at this map tomorrow, and releasing a final version. My changes are going to be towards making it a more pub-friendly map, and as such they will disappoint some people. However, I feel that as _b4 is stable, anyone who wants to us it, can. Here is my current "todo" changelist:

1. Remove flag-at-home captures. Exact flag-capture zone is to be decided. It could either stay where it is or be moved to the beginning of the track (leaning towards the latter)
2. Make both carts reset on capture. Reasoning:
a. Makes more immediate sense to new players
b. Cart progress on one side of the map will directly indicate cart progress on the opposite side.
c. Doesn't "punish" good defense by leaving their cart out in the open.
3. Add 3rd dropdown exit from spawns somewhere
4. Move spawn exit that everyone walks past over to the old capture zone (tired of avoiding that hallway simply because of the spawn, plus it's campable)
5. Add game-wide announcer sounds
a. Announcing cart status mostly
6. Adding a pathway from below the rightside of each base (from perspective of assaulters) up to the Battlements room on the right
7. Possible aesthetic revisions
8. ???

If you have feedback or ideas for this final revision I would appreciate your discussion here.

Thanks-
Mangy

 

[Wilson]

If you have feedback or ideas for this final revision I would appreciate your discussion here.

Dogbread.

 

[MangyCarface]

Any real feedback?

 

[tyler]

Not really. Your ideas are good enough. Especially getting rid of the flag-at-home capture mechanic.

 

[RaVaGe]

Add small red lights near the panels, because I hadn't noticed there was indications here and it was hard for me to find my way.

This tree is totaly out of place.

You should add a window here for snipers.

A little bit repetitive here.

I think it is preferable to reverse the doors here.

Sorry for this very small feedback but I doesn't had the opportunity to play the map.

 

[LeSwordfish]

That's something that i remeber: the water. This is based on a dim and distant memory, but the water feels like it gets very deep very sharply, and due to all the foliage around the edge it can be hard to tell, meaning that this happens. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaH04hhFja8&feature=player_detailpage#t=89s

Which is cool wen you're the guy with a sudden speed and height bonus over the guy who thought he was just getting his feet wet.

 

[Melvin D Engineere]

From last sunday's event:

TF2: ctf_atrophy_b4