Arroyo

CTF Arroyo b9_fix1

GPuzzle

L9: Fashionable Member
Feb 27, 2012
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Those places have nobuilds due to any sentry quite forcing the team to take down the sentry or go through the sewers, that can be easily locked down.
So it's a matter of not forcing the enemy team to do something they don't want.
That could be YOUR team.
 

XionGaTaosenai

L1: Registered
Jun 23, 2012
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But as I mentioned in my "caption" under the picture, you have to take the time to set up, jump, then set up again, in a place where you're in plain sight over a large area on an aggressively small map, meaning you'll be constantly threatened and vulnerable to Snipers while setting up. Even then, you're stuck on a small spot with no cover aside from your own buildings and your back to a wall, meaning you can be attacked from most anywhere in that whole middle courtyard and can easily be hit with splash damage.

I'm not angry that there is a no-build; there are some places on some maps where it would just be too game-breaking to put a sentry. But in every place where a no-build has been put in a place that isn't a spawn room, the no-build is there after the spot was tested and proven to be game-breaking. The thing that irks me here is that, for all I can tell, there was no testing; the measure was preemptive. Wrangler-only Sentry spots are one of the funnest things about the Wrangler, and I don't think they deserve to be removed in such a knee-jerk fashion. The map is still in beta, this is the perfect time to test such things! It should have been tested in alpha.

If it turns out that the spot actually has been tested and found to be game-breaking, then I'm sorry for the derail. If a test build is made in the future and the spot is found then to actually break the map, I will gladly accept the no-build after such a test is made. Maybe I'm just talking out of my rear due to having no mapping experience, but I think it's a legitimate argument that no amount of mapping experience can replace honest iteration and testing.
 

Micnax

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Apr 25, 2009
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I understand your point and will consider removing the nobuild from that area. It is a difficult position to get up onto so I won't expect many people to use it, but the people that do will have a slight advantage.
It hasn't been tested if it is a gamebreaking position yet, so I will remove it for the next test and see what happens with it. It makes me feel that it's position would be quite a risk-or-reward position too, as it can cover almost every entrance to the base, but at the same time it is extremely vulnerable from a wide angle. I think I only put the nobuild there when I released it because the shed and the barrels on the lower train car also had them, so I just assumed I should cover that too.

Also, as for the visual overhaul, I'll see what I can do. I'm not sure what I could do to differentiate the base styles from each other without taking the essential Gorge style away from the bases, but I'll take a look at some other maps and see what they've done.

Thanks for the feedback!
 

XionGaTaosenai

L1: Registered
Jun 23, 2012
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The only other custom map I've seen really embrace the Gorge theme, CP_Process, suffers from the same problem, so it may just be an inherent flaw of the theme.

The thing about Gorge itself is that on Gorge, there is no RED base or BLU base to compare to each other. Even in the symmetrical version of the map, the teams are fighting for control of one singular building at the center of the map and start the game in caves at either end. The Gorge theme is a really nice theme, but it just doesn't mesh well with the "two separate bases facing each other" layout.
 

XionGaTaosenai

L1: Registered
Jun 23, 2012
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I was going to go look at Valve maps to give you advice, and I found out that Lumberyard and Gorge are the only Valve maps to use an alpine setting. Maybe Doublecross too, but it's hard to notice because everything outside of the playing area is so dark. (By the way, Doublecross? Another great example of how to visually differentiate symmetrical bases in TF2.)

In general, Red tends to prefer wood walls, slanted roofs made of corrugated metal, and a generally rough and ramshackle architecture while Blu uses mostly concrete walls and has an architectural style that's very clean and modern, dominated by right angles. Grazr mentions this when talking about roofs in TF2, and while he follows that up by saying it's by no means a hard and fast rule, I feel it becomes more important if you have the layout of two bases facing each other. If the bases are identical in layout and there's not much space between them, you need to have them very visually distinctive, so that the player really feels like they're moving into a different part of the map as they advance. Grazr's own symmetrical map, CP_Axle, is another example of a map that does this well.

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(notice how the bases use different materials and are even shaped differently, despite having the same layout)

(um, if the image above doesn't show up, here's a direct link)

The problem with the "Gorge Style" is that it's basically just the regular Alpine Style plus industrial, white-dominated buildings, the latter of which leave little freedom for pulling off the kind of base detailing that a map like Arroyo needs. I doubt you're willing to completely overhaul the map's theme, but if you were, I think this map would look amazing with a theme that uses the alpine setting (so that you don't have to change the Skybox at all) and has bases that are kind of a cross between CP_Axle's architecture and Dr. Spud's Vineyard theme that he used in the Artpass Contest (you'd have to get permission from the respective authors, of course). Or something like that. It would have to justify the trains, though. Hmm...
 
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GPuzzle

L9: Fashionable Member
Feb 27, 2012
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Something that could help to differentiate sides without major changes would be the fact that, since Gorge has to do with water, add a dam like in Hydro. It could help.
 

XionGaTaosenai

L1: Registered
Jun 23, 2012
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Would a dam be something you could fit in the actual playing area, though? Seems like that would be something that would be restricted to the skybox.
 

GPuzzle

L9: Fashionable Member
Feb 27, 2012
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414
Yes, but we are talking about aesthetics here. For example, having one base disguised as a dam and the other as a water treatment station fits the theme, keeps the immersion, and probably the only thing that would change layout-wise would be the ability to spam at higher directions as a Demoman, the pipe hitting the wall and damaging the other team.
 

Micnax

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Apr 25, 2009
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Moving on up! It's Beta 8! (because who needs 7?)

Since it's another 72hr contest, I had this compiled version laying around of what's closest to Beta 8 as possible since I lost the VMF, so there are a few missing details (most notably the giant RED overlay in front of their base). I wanted to release it anyway until I get around to remaking/fixing the decompiled version. Happy anniversary!


Changelog:
- Team base frontage artpass, no more ugly looking Gorge building for RED!
- More hint optimisation, it ain't perfect though.

Read the rest of this update entry...
 
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Micnax

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Apr 25, 2009
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I took a look at the feedback and demo that was recorded from the playtest last night and I'm super happy to see the map doing what it wants to well: making CTF fun again.

When I get the time to, I'm going to fix up the file and get Beta 9 out, ironing out the optimisation issues and clipping/nobuild parts, so keep an eye out for it in the future! (or another 4 years)