The role of sentries in maps and how it's affected by map design

[A Boojum Snark]

And in a 6v6 with 2 soldis, 1 demo, 1 medic and 2 scouts, (this is normal comp setup), who are you going to sub for an engi?

Honestly, I have a hard time respecting statements made about league play when it's one that has such small teams.
I feel the game was clearly designed for between 18 and 24 players. The high end is obvious: the player limit was originally capped there. For the low: there are nine classes.
The whole idea of Team Fortress is a complex rock-paper-scissors "no one class is best" mechanic. Whether or not the devs have successfully accomplished that goal is subject for a different discussion, but the fact remains that not having enough players to flesh out the team resulting in substitution and balance issues is their own damn fault.

 

[Chilly]

Alright, when is the last time you saw a good engineer in a pub. And if you see one, please send me the IP of the server. Most people that get good at engi realize its low skill skill ceiling and move onto other classes.

Edit: Also, you sneeked behind enemy lines and built a tele and a sentry on a 5 cp map without getting killed? Some how I doubt the skill of the enemy team.

The last time I saw a good engineer in a pub? Last night, when I played TF2. Tonight I was playing L4D otherwise tonight there would have been one as well. In addition, last night I saw a player attempting to do the things that I always do (set up sentries in forward positions, behind the enemy spawn, etc). While he didn't succeed (he needs to improve his shotgun a bit), it was nice to observe. I have a clanmate that does it as well. I believe he learned from watching me. So it's not as rare as you think.

As I stated in my first post, I play against CEVO players all the time. My clanmate is one of the better demomen in TF2 (g0atrly... has been playing as randyb lately) and often brings his teammates on. I'm not saying I always play against excellent players, but the skill of players on our pub server tends to be higher than most as a result of our CEVO guests and more skilled regulars.

You'd really be surprised how easy it is to sneak across the bottom of cp_well and get a sentry/teleporter at the enemy spawn. You'd probably be less surprised on Badlands. However, I often get medics to ubercharge me as an engineer on Payload maps because they know I'll be more effective for the team than simple ubering a demoman that will take out a couple of forward sentries. Getting a teleporter past those sentries along with a sentry splitting them off from support is far more useful.

EDIT: Also, I agree with A Boojum Snark. You can't have a discussion about class balance when all your examples are 6-6 play. It's like saying you're playing a 4-4 game... where's the place for 2 scouts. You have to look at the game as a whole and not arbitrary limits imposed on it. Highlander is extremely fun and really shows how an engineer fits with other classes, but I'm not going to try saying that certain classes are more useful than others based on highlander play alone.

While I've got no problem with 6-6 league play and have scrimmed with some CEVO teams myself, it's really quite silly when people try basing their opinion of the game on that style. It's really quite different than gameplay on even 8-8 servers.

 

[HojoTheGreat]

So I only read through a couple pages of posts and I think I get the general arguments being thrown around.

First of all, I can't believe we have people arguing about the validity of a BASIC ELEMENT of the entire game! TF2 was DESIGNED for each class, with each class in mind, balanced for each class. How can anyone possibly consider questioning the role of an Engineer, it's as fundamental to the game as the other 8 classes.

Next I have to completely disagree with Mar on all points. I'm not going to go through and counter his points as it's already been done, but again I bring up the point that the game was designed with every class in mind, Engie included, and as such it is every mappers obligation to make sure he is catered to, whether you like it or not. This isn't Quake or Unreal Tournament my friends, let's not forget that.

Being that the game is team-focused, I will also remind you that no class, Engie or anyone else, should have the upper hand against any number of individual classes. Yes, there is a very clear difference between a good Engie and a bad one, and the margin can be extremely wide, but all Engineers have one thing in common: without their teammates' support, they will fail, Sentry or not.

Engineers are generally not gun-hugging campers, they are providing a service to their team, playing a role. Sentries more than any other aspect, force a team to work together to take it down and control an area. The way I see it, short of being able to set up 4 Sentries that are impossible to beat without 4 ubers, ANY Sentry emplacement, no matter how strong or weak, is good for the game. No Sentry, or even 2 Sentries, are impossible to take down, it just requires more teamwork and patience to build up an Uber or two to handle them. It's amazing how many times teams throw themselves at Sentries individually until the last 2 minutes of a game, THEN decide to charge an Uber and end up winning.

With this in mind, every point or main game-area (hotspots) should have a viable place to put up a Sentry. This means an area that is not too cramped that a Demo can place Stickies through a doorway without harm, but not open enough that a Soldier can easily pummel it with Rockets. This DOES NOT MEAN making a totally covered spot though, every spot should have it's weaknesses. While a good Sentry position should force an attacking team to work together to take it down, that same position should require the aid of a defending team to keep it up!

A tip while mapping (which I stole from the interview with the VALVe mapper, forgetting his name at the moment), place the Sentry model Hammer to designate Sentry positions and set the Max Fade Distance to 1100 units. Then selecting the Sentry model will give you a grid-radius that is about the distance a Sentry can recognize enemies.

 

[lamelikemike]

I think mappers need to be thinking about engi's when they design their map because sentry spots are probably one of the hardest things to balance. If a lone sentry can win a game the spot is too powerful. I think it is important to think not just about the sentry spots, but spots where the good sentry positions are vulnerable from. If you make a great spot that an engi can turtle up at, there should also be a protected area for other classes to attack it from.

 

[Mar]

Honestly, I have a hard time respecting statements made about league play when it's one that has such small teams.
I feel the game was clearly designed for between 18 and 24 players. The high end is obvious: the player limit was originally capped there. For the low: there are nine classes.
The whole idea of Team Fortress is a complex rock-paper-scissors "no one class is best" mechanic. Whether or not the devs have successfully accomplished that goal is subject for a different discussion, but the fact remains that not having enough players to flesh out the team resulting in substitution and balance issues is their own damn fault.

Well they're going to have to balance out the game if they want us to use all 9 classes.

And why do think that comp teams never used the engi or spy or pyro?

They all have been tried out, but they didn't work. They where too weak. So we didn't use them.

Also, what do you think highlander leagues are for?
They're for using all 9 classes.

 

[Mar]

A tip while mapping (which I stole from the interview with the VALVe mapper, forgetting his name at the moment), place the Sentry model Hammer to designate Sentry positions and set the Max Fade Distance to 1100 units. Then selecting the Sentry model will give you a grid-radius that is about the distance a Sentry can recognize enemies.

Oh, nice this is a cool tip.

Also I realize that engis need to be catered too, and I am not saying don't cater to them. What I am saying is that the engi classes needs to be re-worked.

But until it is fixed we are going to have to deal with them.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

Well they're going to have to balance out the game if they want us to use all 9 classes.

And why do think that comp teams never used the engi or spy or pyro?

They all have been tried out, but they didn't work. They where too weak. So we didn't use them.

Also, what do you think highlander leagues are for?
They're for using all 9 classes.

They've been tried out how? By swapping out another class from your tiny teams? I will not count that as valid. I also call bullshit on the pyro being weak.

Also, what do you think reading is for?
My statement was about small team leagues.

 

[Mar]

TF2 has been around for a year and a half. What makes you think we haven't tried 1 engi, 1 spy, 1 pyro, 1 heavy, 1 medic and 1 sniper? We have

And if the other classes where so good, why do we double up on scout and soldi? The classes need to be further balanced if they want to see comp play time.

Also that stats includes pubs, achievement servers, and comp matches. So it doesn't count. Its too broad. Also, I can easily get 77 kills with all classes (except sniper). Go in a random 32 man server and you can get a solid 30-40 kills in one round of goldrush. So that chart is invalid. Too many variables that it isn't controlling.

 

[MrAlBobo]

Also that stats includes pubs, achievement servers, and comp matches. So it doesn't count.

oh, of course, the sum of tf2 doesn't count the majority of player, because it doesn't fit with your flawed view of the game

as far as im concerned, if anything should be considered invalid stats it would be some kind of broken game where people only use some of the classes, play with half of the players in the server that tf2 with designed for, remove key aspects and only play one gametype...oh wait, I seem to recall a description of comp play I heard somewhere, I wonder if they are at all similar.

 

[Shmitz]

What makes you think we haven't tried 1 engi, 1 spy, 1 pyro, 1 heavy, 1 medic and 1 sniper? We have

You really have a hard time with reading. Here, I'll repeat Boojum's words:

They've been tried out how? By swapping out another class from your tiny teams? I will not count that as valid.

When you have tried 1 engie, 1 spy, 1 pyro, 1 heavy, 1 medic, 1 sniper, 1 demo, 1 soldier, and 1 scout all at the same time, come back and maybe you'll have something credible to say. Until then all of your opinions are based on an artificially restricted framework that has no bearing on the way the gameplay of TF2 is designed and balanced.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

Are you missing my point about 6v6? I don't care what combinations you've tried in it. I'm saying it's inherently irrelevant to game balance because it's the wrong size game. Are there any 9v9 (non-highlander) up to 12v12 leagues you can point me to? I'd honestly be interested in what kind of teams they use.

Achievement servers generally run achievement maps, which aren't part of the chart. Assuming there aren't many achievement servers that run valve maps, I think it's a fine estimate because it includes everything. It includes the pro comp matches, it includes pugs, it includes crappy pub players, it includes decent pub players. Those stat charts are the best snapshot-at-a-glance you'll get.
What does it matter how many kills you can get on a 32p goldrush server? Doesn't that apply equally to all the classes?
Well wait, no, it doesn't. Soldier and demo would have an easier time getting kills because they are more likely to kill multiple people with a crit rocket or sticky field. The pyro also is the most likely to have kills stolen from him because he does steady damage while nearly every other class has burst damage with which to do enough to steal the pyro's credit. Yet the pyro ranks above everyone but heavy.

 

[Mar]

It's called the scientific method.

oh, of course, the sum of tf2 doesn't count the majority of player, because it doesn't fit with your flawed view of the game

as far as I'm concerned, if anything should be considered invalid stats it would be some kind of broken game where people only use some of the classes, play with half of the players in the server that tf2 with designed for, remove key aspects and only play one gametype...oh wait, I seem to recall a description of comp play I heard somewhere, I wonder if they are at all similar.

Dude, it's called science. Good data is data that was acquired when all variables where controlled, except for one, which is why you are testing that variable. Where were you in chemistry class?

And ctf doesn't work right now in TF2 becuase of the spy cloak and pickup tactic, and the way maps are designed. But this is a different problem, and if you want to discuss it, go here. http://www.teamfortress2fort.com/forums/t/FixingCTF-20810.aspx?p=1

Oh, and "

It's almost been 2 years and pub-only players still think comp. players are elitist simply because they know the game."

~Gman

 

[Mar]

About 6v6 not being the real game. Well it is! Your 12v12 and 32 man servers are not the way the game was meant to be played. It is the most profitable (money making) way to play it, but not the best. And where is your evidence backing up the claim that 12v12 is the best?

Acutally, this is how the game was meant to be played. Any more then 6v6 and you're reyling less on skill and more on spam. Why do think this is the most popular number. It's the most popular BECAUSE IT WORKS! That's the same reason why we use 2 soldis, 1 demo, 1 medic, and 2 scouts. BECAUSE IT WORKS!

 

[Mar]

Also, 6v6 is time tested. Your other forms are not. If the 12v12's where truly superior, they would be played. But 12v12 is a pure spam fast and there is less skill and more spam involved in winning. If you cannot see this, this shows how little you truly grasp of this game's mechanics.

 

[MrAlBobo]

Dude, it's called science. Good data is data that was acquired when all variables where controlled, except for one, which is why you are testing that variable. Where were you in chemistry class?

Im inclined to ask what exactly you were doing back in grade 7 math when we discussed exactly what a biased sample is, and why it is inaccurate.

About 6v6 not being the real game. Well it is! Your 12v12 and 32 man servers are not the way the game was meant to be played. It is the most profitable (money making) way to play it, but not the best. And where is your evidence backing up the claim that 12v12 is the best?

32 man servers are just as broken as 12 man servers, 24 is the golden point. Oh and hey, where is your damn evidence that 6 vs 6 is the best? Oh and btw, the fact that a group of people play that way is not evidence. Maps developed by valve that support a certain amount of people is.

Acutally, this is how the game was meant to be played. Any more then 6v6 and you're reyling less on skill and more on spam. Why do think this is the most popular number. It's the most popular BECAUSE IT WORKS! That's the same reason why we use 2 soldis, 1 demo, 1 medic, and 2 scouts. BECAUSE IT WORKS!

Perhaps your not not aware of this but tf2 is considered a game with a small learning curve, you know what that means? It means that the game is intended to be somewhat spammy and give complete noobs a chance to have some fun. Oh, and if repeatedly posting something in all caps makes you feel smart, then by all means keep doing it.

Also, 6v6 is time tested. Your other forms are not. If the 12v12's where truly superior, they would be played. But 12v12 is a pure spam fast and there is less skill and more spam involved in winning. If you cannot see this, this shows how little you truly grasp of this game's mechanics.

Maybe its just me, but i happen to think valve has been playing the game longer then your specific group of comp players. And maybe its just me, but I happen to think the tf2 meta-game has been around longer then your little bastardized version. And you want to question my grasp of the game? If my posts are not enough to convince you then I challenge you to an in-game dual. Class vs Class with every class. We will see who has a more well rounded grasp of the game.

 

[TMP]

Mar, there is something called an edit button. Chill the fuck down.

9v9 is probably the best way to play. To a degree, there needs to be spam (and by definition, since 6v6 has 2 solds+1 demo normally, half the team can be classified as spam-capable). No offense, but I've played 6v6 comp play, and I find it boring. You have a small degree of tactics, but you cannot utilize the full potential of the team without every class.

Also, you need to learn to find some better pub servers. No offense, but if you are doubting good engis exist, you have not been to many pubs.

Do us a favor, go play on some 20-player pubs, and play as a class that you never play. You might have some fun and see the more played end of TF2. And don't play on an EGO server. Go play on one that has some league players in who are just doing it for the fun. The Zyreal servers are good examples.

One who maps for one side only is doomed to fall into infamy: Only with a map everyone enjoys can you be respected and well-known. A map shouldn't have overpowering sentry spots, but it should have them nevertheless.

Also, go find some good engis. They exist, I was one for a good bit of time. Then the spy started getting buffs. I really should go back to engi sometime soon, it was a fun class.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

About 6v6 not being the real game. Well it is! Your 12v12 and 32 man servers are not the way the game was meant to be played. It is the most profitable (money making) way to play it, but not the best. And where is your evidence backing up the claim that 12v12 is the best?

Acutally, this is how the game was meant to be played. Any more then 6v6 and you're reyling less on skill and more on spam. Why do think this is the most popular number. It's the most popular BECAUSE IT WORKS! That's the same reason why we use 2 soldis, 1 demo, 1 medic, and 2 scouts. BECAUSE IT WORKS!

Also, 6v6 is time tested. Your other forms are not. If the 12v12's where truly superior, they would be played. But 12v12 is a pure spam fast and there is less skill and more spam involved in winning. If you cannot see this, this shows how little you truly grasp of this game's mechanics.

Ok, now you've just pissed me off and I won't be posting any further after this.

How the hell can you dare to claim 6v6 is the real game?
"My" 24 and 32 man servers? Let me tell you, I don't set foot on 32 person servers, nor have I ever stated in this thread anything about higher than 24 being good.
Most profitable? ALL the GoldSrc games and ALL Source games up UNTIL TF2 had the player limit capped at 32 because of engine code reasons. Valve specifically and artificially reduced the limit to 24. Why do you think that was? Certainly it would have been more profitable to leave it at 32, after all people hacked it into the game and valve ended up caving in to them anyway.

Time tested? I think it's just some sort of retarded 'tradition' that comp players hang onto and refuse to change. My other forms aren't time tested? Are they tested at all? Can you point me to larger leagues that existed previously? If so, why did they fail to be popular? Prove to me it's because they are "wrong".

You claim that 24 people means you have a spamfest without skill. Are you saying when valve has an internal playtest using 12 on 12 they just spam and don't have any skill? I think this is another case of you confusing one thing with another. You see most of the pub servers with the moronic majority spamming and tout that to be fact of how the game is at that size. This would imply that in a 12v12 league all your oh-so-awesome competitive players suddenly fall prey to some spam-daemon and stop playing skillfully with aim and intent and just spam crap all over.

I still can not get over your audacity to claim 6v6 is "the way it was meant to be" without any evidence other than "the clans do it", at least I have evidence based on things the developers did to back up my claim.

</rant></threadparticipation>

 

[Mar]

If my posts are not enough to convince you then I challenge you to an in-game dual. Class vs Class with every class. We will see who has a more well rounded grasp of the game.

1. I find it funny you want to resort to dueling. This isn't Elizabethan England, ya know. And if you want to duel, I'll find you some comp players that want to duel.

2. I played the game for +150 hours (about 110 of them on the xbox) before I started playing competively. I've explored all the aspects of tf2. And I do play in 12v12 pubs, but they aren't that fun because of spam.

And my whole point is that engi has a low skill clieing, so most good engis move to another class.

And again, Valve made maps for 24 people, not becuase its balanced, but becuase it is profitable, and they are business. If you give the game to the players (like Quake Weapons Factory) the players will make the most balanced game, not the most money making.

 

[NovaSilisko]

xbox

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARgh.

 

[TMP]

2. I played the game for +150 hours (about 110 of them on the xbox) before I started playing competively. I've explored all the aspects of tf2. And I do play in 12v12 pubs, but they aren't that fun because of spam.

1 word. Xbox.

No offense, but the Xbox version was designed for a different clientelle. The Xbox players tend to be more like you, more competitive in their first person shooters; It's what keeps people playing it. The PC version was targeted more towards the players of strategy games and players of already-owned Valve games; Hell, the only reason I purchased it was because of the team aspect. The 24 player cap is designed to reinforce that because the possibilities for team communication on the PC is stronger; On the Xbox, you don't have voice commands while on PC you do. Team play in PC is more emphasized. I'm not going to say CEVO doesn't encourage teamwork, it's that they don't fully encourage the amount of teamwork required to really set TF2 apart from the crowd. With a 12v12 game, if you plan the right teamwork, you can easily have very thrilling battles that overcome all other in excitement and capability; Suddenly, it does not mainly focus on the skill of the individual players, but on their interactions with each other as a collective. Is that not how TF2 was meant to be played, or is it another Halo-style game? Is there a true need for a Team in Team Fortress, or can we respectfully call it Skill Fortress with some Teams?

Besides, if Valve wanted business, would they not have just done 32 player servers default?


Anyways, Engi bases his ability on the remainder of the team. In CEVO play, it's not as effective because there are only a remainder of 5 players to help reinforce his base. A player spared on attack in CEVO is pretty much not good news, but the engi benefits from the more massive numbers, as his base of operations is fortified by the other people as it fortifies them. It's a mutual effect that isn't achieved in small player servers.