I’m going to start doing this for all the maps UGC are playtesting, so others have an idea how much a map improves over time with our playtests. We don’t playtest the crap out of a map. All it takes is a simple playtest if we believe your map would work in comp. Some might not like comp and I can understand. I’ve always been saying this if it works in TF2 Highlander with 18 players, organized pushes, holds, etc then it’s big enough for 24-32 slot servers. It seems Valve have been adding comp maps lately(process/standin/snakewater), I still think it’s possible to make a Valve map that doesn’t involve comp if done right.
I love maps ever since I started playing Half-Life 1998-2007, we played a lot of custom maps in leagues and I believe UGC can help a lot of map makers in this community. I’ve always had a good feeling about maps if something can work or not. We take the highest divisions in UGC to do these playtests. There’s a lot of players in UGC that wants to see better maps and are willing to go the distance if the map maker is willing to do it with us. Hopefully some map makers will learn some stuff from these reviews. My team
http://steamcommunity.com/groups/pi-pi and I are no experts, we just think we can help the mapping community since it seems it lacks the right feedback.
Again sorry to YM for posting this in his map thread.
How it started with Stark
Sometime last year I was browsing around the tf2maps.net library looking at map pics and randomly dl maps. I remember this snowy koth map and I forgot the name of it. The pictures looked pretty cool
http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=3669 Around Christmas I was determined to find the map again. It took me some time with all the maps on the website. I’ve always wanted to focus on maps for UGC, but time was a big thing for me running TF2 HL until I recently stepped down so I can focus on our map problem, projects, and building Dota2.
What I thought about Stark_b1
Once I looked around the map, I just knew it would be awesome for TF2 Highlander which I don’t normally get on most maps that I play. The map had a cp_yukon 2nd mixed feeling with koth_viaduct cliffs. I think it’s important finding different kinds of koth maps and not the same styles. Koth_stark is on a bridge, not really on a hill like most koth maps are which gives it a unique feel to it. It also gives 3 options to push from; left or right side and under the bridge.
There were problems I could see right away with the map. Stark was snowy and a very dark setting. Those two things are pretty bad for comp, even the lighting was pretty damn good for a dark map. I do think you can get away with a dark or snowy map for comp if done right. The red and blue models in a dark map just reminds me of the map koth_lolcano hard to see who’s who etc. There was also a tower you can build on with a level 3 spamming down on the opponents side that we saw before we even playtested it. The skybox was really high. Another thing it didn’t look like a sniper friendly map, which can be good depending on how bad it is. When I look at maps I have an idea what’s going to happen, but I won’t tell it to the map maker until he or she sees it themselves. I know once that happens, they know they need to make a change if something doesn’t look right or when you have both teams telling you the same thing in mumble.
Getting in touch with YM
I added YM on steam just after Christmas and asked him if he would be interested playtesting his map and making changes based on constructive feedback. At first I wasn’t sure if he was open for it, to me he’s a celebrity who made 2 Valve maps, very well known, and been around TF2 mapping from the start. He also hadn’t updated Stark in 3+ years, so I was crossing my fingers. Coming from a head admin/ex platinum comp player I wasn’t sure how he would respond to my offer. He was on board and I was thrilled to death. YM thought I wanted the 5cp stark version since I was coming from comp. I didn’t even download the 5cp version, I was just interested in the koth one.
Then a few days later I set up a playtest so he can make it, which is very important! I make sure any map maker that UGC works with at least comes to the first playtest. This is where you get the most feedback from organized teams all live in the same mumble. It can be a lot to take in at first, it’s not always pretty with all the feedback and changes that might be needed. It only gets better after that as long as the map maker is willing to make changes based on playtests and feedback. If the map maker isn’t willing it’s not worth both of our times.
First Playtest
jan 11th koth_stark pvp vs the 9 doges 8:30pm est
jan 11th koth_stark pvp vs syfy 9:30pm est
January 11th at 8:30pm est & 9:30pm est back to back playtests which is hard to pull off. YM said he would stay up 1:30am-4:30am his time, which was great! A little delay getting both teams in mumble and server at the same time. Things normally start later than scheduled when you’re dealing with 18 players.
Here’s some of the things I’ll point out that we found before playtesting and during the playtest.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#0
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#1
Need to keep it the same
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#2
Heavy was able to shoot through the fence with his minigun
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#3
Pretty skybox, but everyone agreed it had to go. I felt bad for YM, so I told him if you can keep it somewhat purple sky that could be cool.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#4
Gives it a nice feel
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#5
You can build up here and a level 3 sentry is just way overpowered. It shuts down all 3 entrances. No build zone, soldiers/demos shouldn’t be allowed up there, and lower the skybox people wanted to see. I also suggested to possibly make sniper useful in this area. Either add a walkway or make that ledge accessible so they can snipe from. Just like we see in viaduct or lakeside, but nothing too crazy.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#6
Feels a bit cramped and plays like it
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#7
Needs to go wider and more space to move around
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#8
One of the two ways to get on the bridge where the point is, the pathway needs to go wider.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#9
Just not enough space
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#10
Other side is better; a little tight
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#11
Looks a little wider once you get towards the top.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#12
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#13
There’s not much room around the point and that’s where a lot of the action takes place. It’s not easy to get off point right away being so cramped up. Barely enough room for a combo(med/demo), let alone a spy going around it.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#14
A lot of stuff going on here in narrow spaces
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#15
Arfie from pvp suggested to open up the tower to make sniper useful.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#16
Safe place for engie/medic, just need to space it out a bit more
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#17
This ledge is good in the back for soldier/demo/scout, not sure why you would be back here if you were those classes. It would be a nice sniper spot if it wasn’t for the fence. Barrels on this side when the other side doesn’t.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#18
Just not enough room for anyone to move around.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#19
YM has the right idea for the most part, wider is better and space to move around a bit
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#20
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#21
Going up that left side in a narrow path is never good
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#22
Best sniper sightline unless you push forward as a team so sniper can stay on the bridge(point)
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#23
Layout is pretty solid
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#24
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#25
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#26
Not much room especially for scout/sniper
jan 11th koth_stark_b1 pvp vs the 9 doges 8:30pm est
http://logs.tf/160699
jan 11th koth_stark_b1 pvp vs syfy 9:30pm est
http://logs.tf/160719
UGC has 5 divisions; Plat, Gold, Silver, Steel, and Iron in that order. I normally get Gold and Silver teams to playtest in the early stages. Once a map is pretty well developed then I’ll get our best teams in Platinum to playtest it. Pvp is a mid to high silver team, the 9 doges were a high silver/low gold team, and syfy is a high gold team. The first playtest isn’t a matter of getting even teams within the same division, it’s a basic playtest that we want to see what happens. If a team rolls someone which can happen in any division and something on the map really determines that, we can fix it if the map maker is willing to do that. The main focus is to get the map right so anything unfair about the map is removed. UGC’s lower divisions Steel and Iron will have more rolls since those divisions aren’t as balanced as the rest of the league. Getting a map right won’t be as bad for them when it’s time to play it in our league. After the 1st playtest and changes are made, that’s when you need to keep it even division vs division. There’s some high Silver teams that can hang with some Gold teams etc.
The second game was a bit unfair, but at the same time one of the engineers(Grizz) sentry jumped on that tower when his team was pushing forward. We talked about that spot before the game. YM saw how OP it was which is a very good thing.
Overall people wanted the map with more space, sentry spot on tower no build zone and no jump zone, remove the snow, remove the darkness, reduce the height of skybox a bit, give sniper some sightlines. Most of the players liked it and some didn’t because their class was hard to play in tight spaces. YM really appreciated the playtest.
The Next Stage b2
The last playtest was on a Saturday night, which was YM’s Sunday morning. In less than 24 hours he completely redid stark. I was blown away how fast he was doing these changes, which means a lot to UGC working with someone like this. The team got really excited and couldn’t wait to playtest it again. We never expected super fast changes from anyone.
Before
http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=3669
After
http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=13124
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#27
Before
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#28
After; right side doorway
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#29
Another pic of the doorway
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#30
There was a pretty big clipping where the sticky is. You couldn’t walk out of the doorway unless you hugged the left side(right coming out). Easy fix for b3
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#31
YES! This ledge is useful now for any class not just sniper
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#32
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#33
Wider is better
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#34
Far pic coming from the left side; looks great
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#35
Sniper tower added
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#36
Much better, more room
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#37
Looking into the left side rollout; space is good
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#38
uh oh! Only on Blue side; easy fix
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#39
Closer look at the sniper tower
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#40
Sometimes you get stuck walking through the door; not as bad as the sniper ledge; easy fix
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#41
Looking good
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#42
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#43
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#44
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#45
Looks great; It’s good to only have one side of the tower and not both or else it would be OP; having it on one side is perfect
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#46
Only the blue side; easy fix
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#47
A lot better now
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#48
Wow! Makes the pathways from left and right better now
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#49
What a difference
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#50
WHAT! He added a train! Train rotates going across each side every so often. The sniper tower shakes just enough where it doesn’t affect your aim! How cool is that! Train cables even dangle when train crosses, pretty neat.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#51
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#52
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#53
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#54
There’s more room now to get around
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#55
Looks great
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#56
It’s wider now, don’t have to go all the way on the left side to get up;
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#57
Looks narrow til you get at the top, just before the bridge it opens up
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#58
What a difference; enough cover as well
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#59
Very nice
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#60
There’s more room from the b1 version
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#61
Small clipping issue
The Next Playtest b3
jan 18th koth_stark_b3 team venture vs crystal kingdom royal highlander 9:30pm est
Both teams are in Silver and YM didn’t make it this time around, which was fine with the timezones. I told him I’ll get someone to pov stream it with comms and feedback after with all of us talking in mumble. Team Venture rolled out and pushed under the bridge. The other team wasn’t expecting it and it’s great to see stuff like that in a map.
http://logs.tf/165441
http://www.twitch.tv/discario/b/496355384 (video was down after 10 days)
stv:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/51883701/auto-20140119-0237-koth_stark_b3.dem
Everyone enjoyed the map. There’s some tweaking that needs to be done.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#62
The fence should be solid. When teams have a forward push, they shouldn’t see where the enemy is coming from. It’s a bit tough for the other team to jump on the point. Most koth maps are a lot of back and forth capping. This prevents that.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#63
This should be closed off. You can shoot your minigun, rockets, and it’s a pretty nasty sniper sightline that would be hard to counter since he’s safe on the bridge while team is forward pushing. The sniper tower and ledge in the back is plenty for the sniper to do his work.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#64
The sniper ledge in the back is a bit dark
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#65
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#66
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#68
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#67
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#69
Just need to move the light so it’s more visible
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#70
This looks really dark compared to the other side
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#71
Could be a little brighter
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#72
Both teams didn’t like the placement here; suggested to take the health out on both sides and replace one of the small ammo with a small health
1 small ammo under one side; 1 small health under the other
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#41
The doorway should be wider
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#51
Make the tower wider away from the bridge, but don’t cut away any of the free space. You would need to add space somewhere to make up for it.
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#74
Before
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#73
After; nice small change
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#75
b1
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#76
b3
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#77
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#78
b1
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#79
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#80
http://imgur.com/a/jcynD#81
b3
Final thoughts
After two playtests(not counting the double feature) this shows how much can be done to a map by getting the right people to playtest. We took a map that barely got played over the years into something that UGC can possibly use in their league. Hopefully YM keeps updating Stark. There’s a lot of teams that have been asking when the next version will be out. People can get busy and with the 72 hour contest YM was doing his own thing.
Big thanks to YM who’s been great working with! Hopefully you can update it sometime this year. This season is already at the half way point in the regular season, so if you want us to try to play it during summer it would be pretty tight schedule. We need to give teams a couple months at least to take a look at the map and see what they think. Whenever you want to playtest it just let me know. Then we can start plugging it everywhere else. Thanks again YM!