CP Proletariat

[tyler]

http://feedback.tf2maps.net/map/cp_proletariat_a1/

I found this actually plays exactly how it looks. I expected a messy, hard to navigate, difficult to fight in map with a confusing layout. That's what I got. This might work in DoD but it doesn't work here. I had some hopes for this since you spouted some stuff about design theory in TF2, but in the end this turned out like any other first map (but with better lighting).

 

[JeanPaul]

It gives an advantage to the only classes that are already dominating your map: demomen and soldiers. It's because their projectiles are splash and, in the demoman's case, rely on gravity. The other classes that take advantage of a 384 Hu height is Engineer (as Sentry guns do not have damage fall-off - it's restricted by its spherical range) and Sniper (as a sniper rifle does not have damage fall-off).

However, it doesn't matter for those two classes because your map is also a convoluted, narrow piece of mess.

We play tested today and, as you can tell by the feedback, it wasn't received very well. Numerous members tried to RTV to switch the map early. It's extremely cramped (you have some hallways which are 96 Hu wide. I played Scout in this map. What are you supposed to do when you run into a Demoman/Soldier/Pyro in that scenario?), it's overly complex (some of your structure areas remind me of an Escher painting) and it doesn't make sense. Lasts that can be capped before mids? There's no signs on the entirety of the map. Someone in the test put it rather blunty:

"It's confusing at first. Actually, it's always confusing."

There is no reason to be a dick here, its a fucking alpha. Its an early map, bro. I have a lot of changes to make and honestly, how can people get lost in this map? Steel took me all of five minutes to get a hold of. Well whatever, I can make some areas a little more simple.

http://feedback.tf2maps.net/map/cp_proletariat_a1/

I found this actually plays exactly how it looks. I expected a messy, hard to navigate, difficult to fight in map with a confusing layout. That's what I got. This might work in DoD but it doesn't work here. I had some hopes for this since you spouted some stuff about design theory in TF2, but in the end this turned out like any other first map (but with better lighting).

If you think this is even close to my first map, you have another thing coming. :O

Hahah what the fuck are you talking about "in the end"? You havent even played the second ALPHA yet. Did you hear that? ALPHA. How is it confusing? There really arent that many paths to take, and some of the areas are STRAIGHT out of avalanche, that shit wasnt confusing at all. I am receiving feedback and changing things accordingly - which leads me to my next point of interest: The actual feed back itself. Take a look at this:

This map doesn't work, no matter how much crazy theory about tf2 map you tell us

It doesn't work.

You might these things are needed in tf2 because they haven't been done, but they havent been done for a reason

Hate to say it, but scrap this and try something more normal

What a fucking waste of breath, Wilson. What a fucking waste. Instead of just shouting "it doesnt work", try actually giving suggestions on how to make it work. I played last thursday with a bunch of people and everyone loved it. Its something new and refreshing. (their words)

And some more "feedback"

make this into dod_avalanche

just port avalanche if no one did this

this really doesn't work. It's the height, the crampiness and the convoluted nature of your layout

doesn't work for TF2

needs more 96 Hu wide hallways

this plays terribly

extreme height differences, narrow corridors, neither works in tf2

bots have a better chance of navigating this map than hummands

This is downright fucking worthless feedback. What am I supposed to do with this? You guys are seriously negative for no reason, especially for an ALPHA. If I could get some useful feedback, I could make this into something awesome but instead, you guys are incredibly resistant to ANYTHING new, why is that? WAIT I HAVE AN IDEA, ILL MAKE ANOTHER GENERIC LAME ASS MAP THATS BEEN DONE A HUNDRED TIMES YEAH GREAT PLAN.

And for the LAST GODDAMN TIME, the center cap opens BOTH enemy caps and therefore can be capped in either order, that is the entire point of this map.

You guys want to enter into a realm of something *gasp* different for a change? Im looking for help, and you guys + this server testing and feedback are an amazing resource, please dont ruin it with worthless shit! So, do you guys want to help me here?

 

[Prestige]

I love you, man.

 

[Vincent]

Someone missed nap time.

 

[tyler]

You're being a child. Throwing a fit. The map doesn't work. Rather than piss your pants over it, why don't you do a less direct port and try to fit in within the TF2 design spectrum?

We told you why it would play bad. Height. Width. That's the feedback. Playing it was the proof. Now you've got the playtest and the feedback. Make it better.

I never played DoD. I am completely new to this. Your map has no signs and everything looks the same. I don't know what the goals are. I played a map that looked like 5cp push on the HUD and got something else. Nothing in the map told me otherwise. I shouldn't have to read a thread on the internet to know what to do. Don't tell me what the goal is now. I'm not playing the map now. Tell me in game, in an instant.

If you're gonna be like this, then no, I don't want to help you.

 

[JeanPaul]

Its not a port

 

[tyler]

Why does everyone say it's from DoD then?

 

[JeanPaul]

Using something as a basis for your first alpha has nothing to do with a port. A port is a direct copy of the original.

 

[Ælement]

You'd benefit much from accepting that your work isn't perfect.

While it would feel much nicer to receive praise, over the things that are done correctly, this is not how you make good maps. Good maps are made by taking as much critique as possible.

The map doesn't work as it is right now. While that might be frustrating, as mapping is something that takes a painful amount of time, it's not getting better by arguing that it might work.


As for ports, I personally find ports to be a useless waste of time. Why? Because the game mechanics change so rapidly. Especially when you try to port for tf2.
You're basically taking a map that works fine in one game and plug it into a game where it DOESN'T work. And in the process you spend a hell of a lot of time.

 

[JeanPaul]

Okay let me type this out because apparently there is a lot of confusion going on here. As a lot of this was resolved via steam chat.

First, I am not angry at all, I just get passionate! My underlining and bold-ing is just emphasis on certain words to get a point across. Apparently that comes across like I am throwing a fit, I am not.

Second, my map is far from perfect, I know that! Thats why I am here with you bunch to test! I am looking for feedback and when I get worthless comments, it can be frustrating. I have had a lot of good feedback so far, and I am aware its too tight in certain areas and the height is important. I GET IT There is no need to repeat yourselves over and over.

Thirdly, I was just a little annoyed at the slight dickishness of certain comments in both this thread and the feedback system. Its not a big deal, shit happens, I dont even care. What does piss me off though is when I get called childish for pointing out there are a lot of worthless comments and criticisms of my map.

Lastly, I have no goddamn clue why everyone here critiques my map like its a finished fucking product. Its an alpha and if you think it sucks or a certain area sucks, I want you to tell me WHY, not just "scrap it" or "restart whole map" etc etc. I get that some of you have told me why it sucks, I have seen those comments! I guess I was just looking for more specificity. Oh well. :/

Thanks bros and sorry if anyone got pissed off here, its not my intentions, I just want to make a map

 

[Crash]

Get used to shitty feedback. Very few people know WHY something doesn't work, but they can always tell WHEN it doesn't.

It's something we all deal with.

 

[Prestige]

i think the map could be good if the windows and indoor areas werent so small. the basic idea could actually be really fun.

 

[Wilson]

Honestly, i don't think many comments saying "This doesn't work in tf2" both in the test and feedback system are worthless, because to be blunt, your map really doesn't work in tf2 on any level.

Your points are two steps away from each other, turning it into a deathmatch around mid until someone pushes to final (No reason to bother with second) and wins. It is cramped, it is linear and there is extreme height difference everywhere making classes that benefit from such (Soldiers, demos and in some cases heavies) dominant on whole map, there is no reason to even try playing any other class because you are going to get massacared.

To make this any better and work in TF2, i honestly think you would need to change so much, it would probably become entirely new map and nothing like it is now, it is nice you are trying something new, but this is not working in TF2.

Sure, it is alpha, but that doesn't really change anything.

 

[Prestige]

I think it's kind of cool that the points are so close and that you can cap any of them at any time. most the geometry just isn't fun, but confusing.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

I reviewed the demo of the last test of this, because I was curious as to why everyone was talking about the map. Honestly, I see where JeanPaul is coming from with the worthless feedback. At the time telling him to, in-essence, "just start over it doesn't work for tf2" is not good feedback. Why does it not work? Where does it not work? When does it not work? Answering those questions gives the author feedback, everything else is just a comment about the map. It gives the author a general feeling for the map, but does not really help him make the map better. (It's akin to saying "This coffee tastes bad." Well, why does it taste bad? The person who made the coffee doesn't know unless you tell them)

I personally would've ignored most of the test last night because the teams were heavily unbalanced. Why didn't anyone scramble the teams?

I won't say that the map is perfect, there is still a lot work that needs to be done. But I think that the basic concept of the map will work for tf2. Yes, it needs refining, but that is what testing is for.

So I politely remind everyone to 1) If you see unbalanced teams, please do a scramble for the authors sake. 2) when you leave feedback try and be specific in what you are leaving. If you can't fb it during the game, go into spectator and leave it. If you don't want to do that, screenshot it and put it in the thread. Being specific in your feedback is extremely helpful for designers.

 

[re1wind]

Te first thing i suggest you do is to replace the stairs with ramps. Easier, simpler, and you can't get caught on the stairs while jumping, etc. While you're at it, reduce the slope of the stairs to 1/2 or 2/3.

As your stairs/ramps will not reach high enough anymore, you will need to reduce the extreme height differences in the game.

I also strongly recommend you to merge many rooms together, get away from the tiny corridors and doorways and many many ways to get from A to B. too many routes.

Also keep the capture point progression from traditional 5cp maps. You should only add one new thing to your map, and in your case you already have a strong asymmetry.

Use arrows and props to help indicate the location of the control points.


that is all i'm going to say at this point because those are the biggest issues imo.

Oh, finally, do not be afraid to deviate from the original map's layout. The scale and style of the dod map works in dod, but not in tf2.

 

[Trotim]

When a cook makes a meal that tastes horrible the customers will say it tastes horrible. You can't expect them to analyze the meal more than the cook has. If the cook doesn't know why people might dislike it he's a bad cook. And if he then goes on to shout at the customers and insults their opinion nobody will come to eat at his place again.

What I mean is stop bitching about feedback. (Not just JeanPaul by the way.) Look at how the players played your map, that's what you really need to see. Their telling you their impressions is secondary but if you don't appreciate it they won't bother next time at all.

Do what rewind says and decrease the scale of the stairs to at least a more manageable 1/2 instead of 1/1. Now the entire map loses height and has to gain more width.

The good parts of your map reminded me of cp_steel's A and B. The bad parts, like the extreme height differences and narrow stairs and corridors reminded me of cp_orange_x3, only your map is extremely chaotic in comparison so it's not even good for straightforward casual play.

 

[JeanPaul]

Te first thing i suggest you do is to replace the stairs with ramps. Easier, simpler, and you can't get caught on the stairs while jumping, etc. While you're at it, reduce the slope of the stairs to 1/2 or 2/3.

As your stairs/ramps will not reach high enough anymore, you will need to reduce the extreme height differences in the game.

No can do, on top of this requiring an INSANE amount of work, most of the areas just wouldnt connect, so no go here. But, I will definitely be clipping all my stairs with ramps, I totally forgot to do that, so thanks.

I also strongly recommend you to merge many rooms together, get away from the tiny corridors and doorways and many many ways to get from A to B. too many routes.

Way ahead of you bro! This is something I had planned for a while now, I was just hoping that testing my first alpha would tell me specifically where and what places would benefit the most from this. Alpha 2 will have a lot larger and fewer rooms.

Also keep the capture point progression from traditional 5cp maps. You should only add one new thing to your map, and in your case you already have a strong asymmetry.

The point of my map is to try a new layout and point progression, I dont want to ruin that do I? I believe there might be too many choke points if you are only allowed to get these points in order. The point of having both points open up, is so the player isnt forced down one path

Use arrows and props to help indicate the location of the control points.

Yeah I do need to do this, I think I can squeeze this in for my second alpha.

that is all i'm going to say at this point because those are the biggest issues imo.

Oh, finally, do not be afraid to deviate from the original map's layout. The scale and style of the dod map works in dod, but not in tf2.

Absolutely. With the amount of changes I have made since my last alpha, the layout has a lot of additions now. It doesnt even look like avalanche anymore.

 

[Trotim]

I also want to add the actual bad feedback came from the earlier posters saying there was nothing wrong with the map. Yeah they can have their opinion and impression but none of them actually looked at it critically. (Though there were plenty posts pointing out the heights you brushed off.) They probably actually convinced you the map was pretty good. It's not. The negative feedback is trying to help you, the positive feedback poisoned you.

 

[JeanPaul]

Well yes and no. 90% of the constructive criticism from the previous playtest came from ingame communication because I was there the entire time. Mr. Happy and a few others were telling me some things I should do to improve everything over voice communication.