artpass_draco18s

[Draco18s]

tbh I think you'd do a lot better if you left the environmental fine detail stuff for later and worked on your geometry Then when you apply these little final details it'll look even better

Geometry where? You got anything specific in mind that needs to be worked on?

I haven't messed with the geometry in a while, doing props, overlays, and others, as I had pretty much considered that I was done.

 

[Draco18s]

So:
Optimization question:

I loaded up my map on my laptop and used the budget panel to gauge how well my map was performing (I get 60 FPS on my desktop basically all the time on my map). Laptop was running at around 20. The WORST spot I found dropped me to an approximated 10 (its the tunnel near A, I've got a bunch of grass/bush props at the far ends of the sight lines from that location but that standing anywhere other than the tunnel the farther set doesn't render--maxfadedist).

So I figured I'd load up a Valve map and compare how optimization poor this area might be.

Loaded up Thundermountain and spawned red. Showbudget registered approximately 10 FPS (anything under 15 starts to go off the top of the screen). In red spawn and it didn't improve (to anything where I could more accurately gauge it with the budget panel) but at the same time it felt smoother than what 10-15 FPS should feel like (jittery, laggy).

1) Is my map fine? E.g. is it sufficiently optimized to being "at least" as good as a Valve map?
2) Was the budget panel wrong about the FPS of Thundermountain (and it really was rendering faster) and my map is inefficient?

I should note that the big ticket item on both maps' render speeds was "mat_threadedendframe" which I have no information on what it is. It is labeled to make me think it's a "wait" command (eg. it finished rendering the frame and it's waiting on something else before it can render the next one). In every screenshot I've ever seen of the showbudget panel, mat_threadedendframe is not the most expensive thing, but on my maps it is (by a huge margin--10+ ms to <2 for the second place process)

 

[Tinker]

Send it to someone else and have them test it for you as well. Those readings are too singular and vague to be able to say anything about them.

 

[Draco18s]

Send it to someone else and have them test it for you as well. Those readings are too singular and vague to be able to say anything about them.

I've got two friends and...three additional computers (between us) to get numbers on.

But under the assumption that it still lines up (eg. my map's worst location is in line with Thundermountain and other maps) then I should be ok?

 

[Tinker]

Assuming you test with 32 demoman bots spamming, yes.

 

[Draco18s]

I somehow doubt that's necessary.

I am trying to cut down the sight lines there, though, just to reduce the biggest impacts.

 

[Draco18s]

I am an entity mage!

Had some fun here. It doesn't look too fantastic, but that's because I can't figure out how to specify my own sprite texture and get it to display right (it refuses to be translucent). Took over *math* 19+ 22+ 1+ (3*9)+ (2*9)+ (2*9)+ 5... 110 entities/outputs to accomplish. 85ish particle emitters, 9 sprites (or 1 particle, see 2nd vid), 3 relays, 2 point templates, 2 timers, 1 ambient_generic, and 10 env_soundscapes. All of that to cause it to rain. <3

Still rough around the edges, and I suspect there'll be a limit on how well I can get things timed, soundscapes seem to turn off/on at the end of their loops (with some fading) so how accurate that will be will be dependent on when the point is capped relative to the loop.

Did another go with the lightning_striker particle system. I think it looks like ass (and its behavior is unpredictable--took me four tries to actually see the lightning and I didn't change anything*)

(If the videos are low quality or not processed, give em a few minutes)

*Actually, I did. I had to change the thunder audio file because TF2 decided to bump up its volume so I had to lower it back down again 18db (original was too quiet, so I bumped up the volume 30 db which is what you hear in the first video). But the particle system sometimes does a single strike strait down, and sometimes (less often) does a fan-web outwards on the XY plane. I've never figured out why.

 

[Jetti]

I like the first one best. If you can make the thing less circular and less beam-like, it'd be good.

 

[Beamos]

Yeah. The first one feels more natural than the second one.

 

[Draco18s]

I like the first one best. If you can make the thing less circular and less beam-like, it'd be good.

I wish I could, but that's how light_glow01 looks. I tried making a custom sprite texture, but I couldn't figure out how to make it transparent.

light_glow01 uses black for transparency (or so it looks like), so I tried that, and I tried an alpha channel, and I even used the same VMF but my VTF (so I had the same shader and parameters).

I simply could not achieve the same results with a different texture. :facepalm:

If anyone else can get it to function, I'd much appreciate the help.

Edit:
Figured out why the sprites were transparent. Apparently in order to be rendered correctly with transparency, the texture must be 128x128. :facepalm:
Still having an issue getting them to flash when I cap the point rendering at runtime, though...

Setting CSprite to non-sprite model artpass/lit_clouds_sm
Precache of artpass/lit_clouds_sm ambigious (no extension specified)

 

[Draco18s]

Alright, finally got it. Sprites apparently need their extension specified (how silly, its the only entity I can think of that needs the material extension).

Needs some work, but it was a quick and dirty 30 second texture at the same scale as the light_glow

And now one with a better texture

 

[Draco18s]

Did a quick and dirty walkthrough, hitting many of the major points in the map.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vQtBCE4R9g

I noticed a soundscape issue (lol, rain sounds inside) and a small brush-clipping issue (can you spot it?) that I'd already fixed (and unintentionally reversed).

The area above C could use work, but I'm running out of steam and ideas.

 

[Tinker]

Looks good; a few things though:

It's a swamp. It's wet. While this is simulated pretty well around A, when you came out of the BLU spawn it looked like it was all dried up or something - please make that great displacement area left of the BLU spawn as swmapy as you can get it, as that's a great area to experiment.

The cave wall texture looks.. off. Not sure if it's a Half-Life 2 texture or even just a place holder, but it looks odd.

As for C itself, go for a single theme, not several. The concrete surrounding and the odd boat and underwater channel rather clash. You could make the entire building a little more wooden and like there's shipping materials there and easily get away with it (plus give you a little more opportunity to detail the upper regions).

The area beneath C needs to be very clearly deadly. As it is now, it looks like you can get up again through the waterway next to the boat, but instead you die - make the water a whole lot lower, put some rocks everywhere so it looks painful, something.

 

[Draco18s]

It's a swamp. It's wet. While this is simulated pretty well around A, when you came out of the BLU spawn it looked like it was all dried up or something - please make that great displacement area left of the BLU spawn as swmapy as you can get it, as that's a great area to experiment.

Good point. Thanks.

The cave wall texture looks.. off. Not sure if it's a Half-Life 2 texture or even just a place holder, but it looks odd.

There've been prior complaints, as its a texture I made myself and none of the TF2 rock textures work particularly well.

As for C itself, go for a single theme, not several. The concrete surrounding and the odd boat and underwater channel rather clash. You could make the entire building a little more wooden and like there's shipping materials there and easily get away with it (plus give you a little more opportunity to detail the upper regions).

I'll look into it. I want it to be a cave around C, still. But wood structures might work better.

The area beneath C needs to be very clearly deadly. As it is now, it looks like you can get up again through the waterway next to the boat, but instead you die - make the water a whole lot lower, put some rocks everywhere so it looks painful, something.

I'm getting an alligator, eventually. I do agree about it looking like you could jump to the boat though. But if I push it any farther down the tunnel you can't see it at all.

 

[grazr]

If you're not gonna concentrate on making the finale totally spytech then working with what you have now looks like the start of a run down spytech base. Use more spytech materials and props but make them look run down with overlays, dirt displacements in corners and those vines hanging from almost everything.

Right now, between B and C just looks like an inconsistant mess of materials. Like you've had a lot of ideas and chosen to use all of them rather than focusing on a specific look that is more immersive. Or just that you havn't been able to decide on a specific look for your final area. Take a step back and just think about it for a bit. Mapping is as much in the mind as it is utilising Hammer.

 

[Draco18s]

If you're not gonna concentrate on making the finale totally spytech then working with what you have now looks like the start of a run down spytech base. Use more spytech materials and props but make them look run down with overlays, dirt displacements in corners and those vines hanging from almost everything.

I'll try that as well. Did a quick sort of job using more wood (and I think it looks wrong).

I don't know about the wood texture (noted with the ?) in that spot. Been having general troubles figuring out what kind of material needs to be there. The walls down near the point (the paler swamp wood wall) I think is a shitty texture. It doesn't tile horizontally properly!

I want to keep that spytech look, as I've got the generator room with a bank of computers behind some glass. But I also want it to feel like Red build up the cave, rather than just inhabiting it (so concrete or wood in some places) or just a cave facade.

The rock outer walls (seen at B) I don't particularly like either, but the material I made is more appropriate for an interior space, not an exterior one. But the Karst textures are too "green" (no props match it, except the karst rock ones, which don't fit in the spaces I have) and none of the other blend textures are anywhere near appropriate.

Edit:
I'll also admit I kinda slapped a texture on the B point at random just so it wasn't gray...

 

[Draco18s]

Alright, how's this starting to look? (Awesome hammershot go)

(Yes, the arrows are floating: I'd turned off brush entities and they're parented to a func_door. After A is capped they sink down ah la Badwater.)

I've also got a broken section of dock I had done up at one point, but didn't like too much, so I stuck it in a disabled visgroup.