Why we should care about quality.

[Juice]

I dont know Baysin..

I still believe MARIO_KART is only played because of its textures.

I don't believe if you took away all those custom textures anyone would even play it for a second. MARIO_KART is not a good map by any stanards, yet its played because of its relation to the mario game.

god forbid we ever see and manga/anime maps, forget it, game over lol.

Speak to soon, weeaboo friend is making one..

 

[Baysin]

DJive, I 100% agree, furthermore, I think that map is a bleeding eyesore. I must confess I haven't even played it... the screenshots alone hurt my brain, and I can't bring myself to try it out. But, apparently, some people enjoy playing a Mario themed level, and good for them. It's perfectly okay for them to do that. If some weird Mario/TF2 hybrid community springs up, then that's great! I won't go near it, but that's cool that the game is flexible enough to accomodate that. Our challenge is to make maps that conform to OUR vision of how the game is best experienced, and, as we're discussing, to furthermore find ways to expose the Mario Kart crowd to these maps so they can see what else there is out there. They may always have a soft spot in their (glaring florescent green) heart for Mario Kart, but hopefully they'll also appreciate a custom map that puts these other maps to shame. Part of my point, though, is that we don't want to alienate the Mario Kart, orange_x players. They are part of our "clientele" if you will, and we just need to be careful to educate and enlighten them, rather than assume they're somehow not sophisticated enough to play on a high-quality map. We need to CONVERT these players, not offend them. Easier said than done, I know.

 

[Shmitz]

Speak to soon, weeaboo friend is making one..

"Weeaboo" is an excellent example of what we want to avoid. Originally it was a sophisticated commentary on the phenomena where people get so caught up in a popular fad that they are incapable of putting it aside when there are higher priority matters.

Now it's been dumbed down through popular usage to just be a derogatory term for an anime fan, even though its origins had nothing to do with that.

 

[Hawk]

There are three things I think the individual mapper can do, and luckily I see a lot of it happening on this message board already:

- Making quality maps.
- Providing tutorials and good advice to the new mapmakers that approach us.
- Lending our playtime to quality maps.

Making quality maps and playing quality maps seem pretty cut-and-dry. But as far as giving advice to mappers on this message board, we need to have friendly ways to nudge people in the right direction.

"The concept is interesting, but if you ask me, that type of map is better-suited to a different game".
"People will enjoy your map more if the textures don't distract players from their goal."
"Rather than arbitrary structures, why not try the same idea with buildings and real-world structures? People like the feeling of playing in familiar environments."

With the right wording, we can help to improve map quality without being elitist.

 

[MangyCarface]

We need to CONVERT these players, not offend them. Easier said than done, I know.

Probably the best expression of intent here. That said, what techniques should mappers use (not "us" nor "them") to this end?

 

[Armadillo of Doom]

I'm going to be devils advocate here. It sounds like we are completely dismissing the amateur mappers, and people who are trying to get better. What if someone releases a 'my first map lawlz' because they're actually looking for feedback and ways to improve? Setting a high standard of quality is fine, but how can we convey that in a positive way to first timers who are bound to release a few crappy attempts? And as an aside, am I the only person here who kindof enjoys the Mario level? Not for more than like 30min. in one sitting mind you, but still. Sure the outline is terrible, leading to highly chaotic gameplay. But it's so radically different and colorful from anything in TF2, I think it's exactly meant to be a non-serious map that you play w/ friends.

 

[Shmitz]

There's a difference between "here's my first map, what do you think?" and "hey world, here's my awesome first map, it's a finished product, and I'm not going to do anything after this to improve it".

I've been thinking of starting a map review site to review finished maps based on a well defined set of criteria. Community rated content sites like FPSB tell users nothing about the quality of the content, just how many people are enthusiastic enough about it to spend the time clicking buttons.

A review site with a small handful of reviewers would explain in a bit more detail the pros and cons of a given map. Even if readers disagree with reviews, the reviews would be consistent, meaning a reader would know from past agreements/disagreements how he should feel about this new review he's reading.

I don't know how popular such a site would be with average players, since I imagine some people like the sense of empowerment they get from sites like FPSB, but I imagine it would be a great service to server operators, because consistent ratings are much more valuable in making decisions than the hit-and-miss method of community rated content.

That would leave plenty of resources still open for the beginners to learn how to map and improve (like FPSB, or even better, our own WIP forum), while providing some sort of screen for the people who are looking for higher quality content.

 

[Armadillo of Doom]

I don't see any reason why we couldn't do that here. There are enough members here w/ a very high knowledge of the editor, and map design in general. I seem to remember some time ago throwing around the idea of a TF2M stamp of approval. Something special to denote exceptional works.

 

[Hawk]

I've been thinking of starting a map review site to review finished maps based on a well defined set of criteria.

Reviewing only finished maps kind of diminishes the helpfulness of the review doesn't it? Otherwise, I really like the idea.

 

[trackhed]

i believe it would be very helpful.

Having more of a showcase of finish product than a big stream full of MFM and FUN with a few good maps sandwiched in there SOMEWHERE is more about a personal and professional non-biased opinion on the map than the communities skewed opinion of a voting system (when a community grows so do its problems).

tf2maps.net does offer web hosting for donations.

 

[Shmitz]

Well, the idea is that the review is for the sake of the public, not the map author. There's nothing to stop a map author from getting plenty of feedback before making a final release. For that matter, there's nothing to stop a reviewer from offering feedback here on our forums or FPSB or anyplace else. But, for the formal review, it'd need to be a finished product, much like you don't see reviews for unfinished movies or unfinished games.

On the other hand, there's nothing to say that a review site (or review section of tf2maps, if people think that's a good idea) can't also have a preview section, offering brief highlights and commentary on maps that are in beta.

 

[MangyCarface]

finished[/i] maps based on a well defined set of criteria. Community rated content sites like FPSB tell users nothing about the quality of the content, just how many people are enthusiastic enough about it to spend the time clicking buttons.

A review site with a small handful of reviewers would explain in a bit more detail the pros and cons of a given map. Even if readers disagree with reviews, the reviews would be consistent, meaning a reader would know from past agreements/disagreements how he should feel about this new review he's reading.

Do want. Preferably organized by nongimmick/canon and then gimmick maps. Because frankly it's two entirely different crowds of people who want each of these genres respectively.

 

[shpladoink]

It's a three-front war really: the mappers, the players and the servers. Unless at least two of them can drag the standards back out of the ditch they're in now, things probably won't change much.

I don't think I'd call it a war. Everyone wants the same thing in the end, which is a map that's fun to play on. People just have different tastes.

The custom maps for TF2 follow Sturgeon's Law just like user-created content for any other game. A majority of the ones I've seen are sub-par, and I do not see this changing in the future. Hell, my current mapping project might suck once I release it for all I know, but at least I'm trying to create something that people will enjoy rather than shitting something out for the sake of doing so.

A mapping community movement to increase design awareness and help mappers do the best they can is great, but we would also need server owners beyond the reach of our forum here to pitch in and give these maps respectable play time. If those two things happen, players will slowly start to "get it", I think, but it'll be a major task to get that far.

As more people with the same mindset as most of you guys start making their maps and content available, the good stuff will start to poke its valiant head up out of the rubble heap. If you frequent any particular servers, let the admins know which maps you believe should or should not be available or in the regular rotation. If a map is fun and people want it, someone will be hosting it, but there will be no escaping the horrible mapping monstrosities out there and the ever present mob of like-minded crap worshipers that come with them.

Speak to soon, weeaboo friend is making one..

kawaii~ ^______^;;

 

[Apex_]

If you frequent any particular servers, let the admins know which maps you believe should or should not be available or in the regular rotation. If a map is fun and people want it, someone will be hosting it, but there will be no escaping the horrible mapping monstrosities out there and the ever present mob of like-minded crap worshipers that come with them.

I can't emphasize this enough. I almost never get feedback on the map selection on my server, except from my friends and subadmins. That makes it a lot harder to decide what maps to keep and which to scrap, since there are maps that I like personally but rarely get playtime while the opposite is also true.

A lot of this stuff depends on the players. It's tough to get people to follow signs in an unfamiliar map or even read the message of the day, so trying to get them to change how they think about maps (in any way, not just pure production quality) will be a real challenge.

Also, I agree war may have been a bit over the top, but the three cogs that make up custom content distribution are certainly turning the opposite direction from what we'd like to see. I guess according to my own metaphor our little movement would be the maintenance crew then. :tongue_smilie:

 

[MangyCarface]

Why hasn't anyone made an admin plugin, then, that can take in a user's rating of the map in the same fashion as votemap, and store it as a variable that the admin can use to change their rotation? I bet you could even rig it up so that the server would automatically prefer higher rated maps when choosing upon a round end

 

[Scotland Tom]

Shmitz, I think your review site is a fantastic idea. Whether it's separate from TF2Maps or a part of it I'd like to see it happen.

Both players and server admins need that kind of analysis of the various maps that are available in order to make an informed decision about whether or not it should be played/hosted. Map makers themselves can use the reviews (or honest previews) to improve their work. It's one of the biggest issues right now that the flow of information about a map is very one-sided. Map makers release their maps with some description and a list of things they might be working on and they get almost nothing in return. (Unless, of course, they happen to have access to a server that happens to be host to some courteous and responsive players.)

Make up a review/preview site for maps. I'll be happy to sign up as your first map reviewer.

 

[Armadillo of Doom]

So why don't we just take a few experts from the site, and make a new forum for dedicated reviews & previews?

 

[drp]

i think a subdomain with 'review.tf2maps.net' would be appropriate lol

 

[drp]

a wordpress backed installation where users can make an account and submit reviews on maps. hmm could work.

 

[Armadillo of Doom]

But I think the idea is to differentiate it from normal mass-user reviews. Outlining very specific things from select number of knowledgeable users.