The Über Update, Day One

[LeSwordfish]

A good point.

Pretty much that. Small changes are good because, while boring and illogical as everything else, they're much easier to get used to. Far better to see these mior changes than big things that create new playstyles for everyone to get used to. It's also far easier to comprehend at-a-glance: -60% is so much clearer than "Stuns"

 

[Trotim]

you seem to think they HAVE to add new items

they don't

why does that shotgun and the fists need to exist when they change next to nothing, that is the problem here

I mean, sigh. being different is a core quality of an unlock, otherwise you just get comparables which means that after a month or so nobody will use one of them anymore as it's become clear one is always better than the other. I'd gladly take one item on Flare Gun level over six items that are really boring and will either never or always be used instead of being sidegrades

 

[Randdalf]

you seem to think they HAVE to add new items

they don't

why does that shotgun and the fists need to exist when they change next to nothing, that is the problem here

I mean, sigh. being different is a core quality of an unlock, otherwise you just get comparables which means that after a month or so nobody will use one of them anymore as it's become clear one is always better than the other. I'd gladly take one item on Flare Gun level over six items that are really boring and will either never or always be used instead of being sidegrades

I completely agree. Ever since they've done the packs for each class, every new item has stayed within the constraints of the existing weapons and the unlocks. For example, they've never given the Spy a new gadget, but instead a variety of different cloaks, revolvers and knives. Heck, we've got 3 soldier bugles already and we're on course to get a fourth this week - how many can you have? Why can't the demoman have TNT? Or lay mines? Why can't the pyro make more inventive use of his flames - set oil on fire, etc.? Ironically, the class with the most varied loadout - the Sniper - is also the one you'd expect to have the least varied loadout. Why are we getting things like targe demos instead of expanding on the theme of Demoman. Every community item is just not very inventive. We need to see more weapons that help broaden a class in its field, rather than broaden a class to totally new fields. Adding stat tweaked weapons doesn't broaden anything, and just clogs the item system up. I believe this comes partially out of Valve's desire to support the community - but all the community submitted items fall into existing weapon categories - and partially out of the large amount of playtesting they'd want to put into more drastic changes.

 

[Prestige]

5 item ideas you test for a week or two a month in the tf2 beta which started 3 months after the games release. at the end of week or two you vote for which weapon depending on what valve thinks, a few of these weapons will get into the game.

or they can just not be dumb and test weapons on their own

 

[Mariner]

The degreaser is awful (besides it being a terrible weapon) because it makes no sense why it would have an impact on your entire loadout's switching speed.

HERETIC! HERETIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIC

TBH, It's entirely possible that it's much lighter than the original Flamethrower, which does kind of correlate with it being less powerful.

 

[Retroid]

The degreaser is awful (besides it being a terrible weapon) because it makes no sense why it would have an impact on your entire loadout's switching speed.

I think this has many possible explanations.

Degreaser (being an awesome weapon) looks like it could be a bit lighter (being made up of cheap scrap metal) - this could account for the faster weapon switch as you're going to be able to switch weapons quicker if they don't weigh a ton.

Plus being a Degreaser's name implies that it's going to get covered in oil, perhaps be slicker.

...

But all this is a bit silly anywho, you've got a world which is based in the industrial revolution with characters equipped with a wealth of weapons and hats that couldn't possibly exist back then (or even now for the most part). They fight in places ranging from Egypt to the Yukon, there's carts that get propelled by someone simply standing near to them...

It's a cartoon with some adult humor, you don't ask how say Cartman can fit an alien satellite up his ass and it's a similar thing here.

Story, context, science - all an unnecessary bonus on top of the main reason for having the weapons; to change the gameplay in a meaningful way and to add variety.

 

[Doctor Paprika]

I think this has many possible explanations.

Degreaser (being an awesome weapon) looks like it could be a bit lighter (being made up of cheap scrap metal) - this could account for the faster weapon switch as you're going to be able to switch weapons quicker if they don't weigh a ton.

Plus being a Degreaser's name implies that it's going to get covered in oil, perhaps be slicker.

...

But all this is a bit silly anywho, you've got a world which is based in the industrial revolution with characters equipped with a wealth of weapons and hats that couldn't possibly exist back then (or even now for the most part). They fight in places ranging from Egypt to the Yukon, there's carts that get propelled by someone simply standing near to them...

It's a cartoon with some adult humor, you don't ask how say Cartman can fit an alien satellite up his ass and it's a similar thing here.

Story, context, science - all an unnecessary bonus on top of the main reason for having the weapons; to change the gameplay in a meaningful way and to add variety.

It reminds me of Kevin Smith's complaints about Superman II, where Superman kisses Lois Lane and makes her forget about him and the night they spent together. Kevin Smith said that didn't make any goddamn sense, but when he said so to someone, they basically said "Hey, nerd, it's all made up, people can't fly either."

Point is, I agree with Kevin Smith. Even though it's all made up, somehow Superman just taking off and flying just feels like it makes more sense than him giving someone amnesia with a kiss.

Also, the Industrial Revolution happened a good century and a half before TF2's setting (though you could say it's in a second Industrial Revolution with the discovery of Australium, zomglol).

 

[tyler]

By your logic though, Viaduct isn't a map. It works both ways, unfortunately.

My logic is that not every background is a map.

 

[Retroid]

Point is, I agree with Kevin Smith. Even though it's all made up, somehow Superman just taking off and flying just feels like it makes more sense than him giving someone amnesia with a kiss.

And Kevin Smith's right, completely. Superman is the straightest, most normal hero there has ever been... He's a serious character and is supposed to be taken seriously.

Deadpool on the other hand isn't, continuity, plausible weapons aren't a part of him (I'm only thinking about early Deadpool as well - never mind the latest shit).

TF2 is more on the Deadpool side of things; I mean it started with weapons that didn't technically make sense (teleporter, healing beam etc..) and now it's expanding on those fundamentals, naturally it's getting sillier as it goes along but it's all in name of gameplay really.

Mann co is a bit like the crazy aperture science - but set in a cartoony universe so it can afford to be a bit silly.

 

[LeSwordfish]

My logic is, they will always add more weapons- it's sad, but it's set. They might as well be good ones.

 

[Doctor Paprika]

And Kevin Smith's right, completely. Superman is the straightest, most normal hero there has ever been... He's a serious character and is supposed to be taken seriously.

Deadpool on the other hand isn't, continuity, plausible weapons aren't a part of him (I'm only thinking about early Deadpool as well - never mind the latest shit).

TF2 is more on the Deadpool side of things; I mean it started with weapons that didn't technically make sense (teleporter, healing beam etc..) and now it's expanding on those fundamentals, naturally it's getting sillier as it goes along but it's all in name of gameplay really.

Mann co is a bit like the crazy aperture science - but set in a cartoony universe so it can afford to be a bit silly.

The thing is, though, I still don't think things like a wrench making you more flammable even make cartoon sense. There's a difference between something silly and impossible but still within the confines of even convoluted cartoon logic - like a healing beam or a teleporter - and something that's not just silly and impossible but a total non sequitur.

I'm not trying to get in an argument, but I really don't see TF2 as being fundamentally as off the wall as you suggest. Teleporters, Mediguns, etc. are impossible, sure, but they make sense as long as you accept that "they have magic solutions to combat problems," i.e. a magic healing beam that seals up bullet wounds and pads you stand on to instantly transport you to the front lines.

Things like a 10% vulnerability to fire damage from a wrench with spikes on it goes beyond the initial willing suspension of disbelief. The reason I compared it to Superman is that Superman's ability to fly is the core of his character and is necessary for all things that make him unique (fighting Brainiac on the ground? Lame), but his amnesia-kissing was just made up on the spot to fill a potential plothole.

These goofy stat-changes are just that: the heal beam of the Medigun is necessary for the Medic to even exist, and all it amounts to is just "okay, it's just ridiculously high tech", but +10% fire vulnerability, -20 HP, 65% faster weapon switch, etc. are just random stat changes slapped on to balance out the other gameplay mechanics those weapons have.