MrAlBobo
L13: Stunning Member
- Feb 20, 2008
- 1,059
- 219
...examples?
The only real douche attitude ive seen regarding the map was from TMP when a cp version was made...
Most other people that made comments about too many versions tend to be joking.
The Problem With Vector
- Thread starter Icarus
- Start date
...examples?
The only real douche attitude ive seen regarding the map was from TMP when a cp version was made...
Most other people that made comments about too many versions tend to be joking.
Dr. ROCKZO
L8: Fancy Shmancy Member
- Jul 25, 2009
- 580
- 159
The Problem with Vector is you're getting too much useless Feedback?
That seems a bit silly, even this thread has had 20+ replies in a day, some peoples map threads get less than that in their entire life.
Everyone likes Vector. There I said It.
That seems a bit silly, even this thread has had 20+ replies in a day, some peoples map threads get less than that in their entire life.
Everyone likes Vector. There I said It.
I'd be willing to help ya out some with the testing part. I remember trying this out a few times before. It's an interesting game mode, but I know it needs a lot of fine tuning to get it balanced just right. We run our own 32-player map testing (mostly for beta versions and up) every Sunday over at FG. Just post any new versions you make here and they will be added to our queue:
http://fearedgamers.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=38
Or message me on Steam
P.S.: pl_waste is great!
http://fearedgamers.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=38
Or message me on Steam
P.S.: pl_waste is great!
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- Jul 31, 2009
- 1,590
- 410
I think we need...
Like it or not, Gameday seems to have become a "mess around, try to win, and test the flow, and comment if you really feel like it" event. Not quite the same as "test this thing to death". Maybe if someone made a small SourceMod plugin which provides a controlled way for players to do "testing" cheats...
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This is something I've been thinking about for sometime too
(following is not directed at anyone, I'm just ranting)
Layout theory and balance tweaking is extremely difficult if you haven't played the map enough, taking everything into account (health, shortcuts, height advantages, teleporters) is practically impossible, espcially on short tests where there's also a number of other maps being played.
At best you're going to get a comments on specific locations that 'played wierd' or something along those lines. And I personally think that is enough. The map author knows everything about the map, he/she has the data to make the descisions.
For the players to be of any more help you would have to share all your thoughts with a dedicated group of people and have a discussion about the different issues.
But seeing as we are mostly mappers around here, and with ongoing projects ourselves (in somecases multiple) we don't have the time to take part in long theorycrafty session for others peoples maps when we need that effort on our own creations.
Thoughtout and directly useful feedback takes a lot of effort, and it's very hard to care about other peoples maps to that degree if your own map is getting nothing aswell.
So short comments like "this tunnel feels cramped" or "man, these doors are a real bottleneck from hell" are really all you should, and can expect from other mappers. In the end, it's still up to the author to do the thinking.
If you get "useless feedback" it's probably because they didn't find anything in particular they disliked. But felt it was worth to mention this other small detail that you've might have overlooked... like "hey I found a dev/nodraw texture that shouldn't be there" or "the shadows on this prop is very wierd".
They probably never intended to give any indepth feedback (either didn't have any, or didn't care) in the first place, so I don't see why that is anything to complain about.
...The end.
(following is not directed at anyone, I'm just ranting)
Layout theory and balance tweaking is extremely difficult if you haven't played the map enough, taking everything into account (health, shortcuts, height advantages, teleporters) is practically impossible, espcially on short tests where there's also a number of other maps being played.
At best you're going to get a comments on specific locations that 'played wierd' or something along those lines. And I personally think that is enough. The map author knows everything about the map, he/she has the data to make the descisions.
For the players to be of any more help you would have to share all your thoughts with a dedicated group of people and have a discussion about the different issues.
But seeing as we are mostly mappers around here, and with ongoing projects ourselves (in somecases multiple) we don't have the time to take part in long theorycrafty session for others peoples maps when we need that effort on our own creations.
Thoughtout and directly useful feedback takes a lot of effort, and it's very hard to care about other peoples maps to that degree if your own map is getting nothing aswell.
So short comments like "this tunnel feels cramped" or "man, these doors are a real bottleneck from hell" are really all you should, and can expect from other mappers. In the end, it's still up to the author to do the thinking.
If you get "useless feedback" it's probably because they didn't find anything in particular they disliked. But felt it was worth to mention this other small detail that you've might have overlooked... like "hey I found a dev/nodraw texture that shouldn't be there" or "the shadows on this prop is very wierd".
They probably never intended to give any indepth feedback (either didn't have any, or didn't care) in the first place, so I don't see why that is anything to complain about.
...The end.
I retract this statement in light of cp_vector. Yay, now we can all look forward to even more vector testing!:facepalm:
Trotim
aa
- Jul 14, 2009
- 1,195
- 1,045
I don't want to sound rude or anything, but I don't think basically rejecting a large group of people who tested your map and commented on it will help you get better feedback.
Bad maps are only played by a select few here, those who still actually care enough to try them properly, so these maps will probably get better feedback, or none. When your map is well-known, it's played by way more players, so you obviously get more clutter. On top of that, if the map is also good, testers used to way worse maps won't even see any problems, let alone comment on them.
Or maybe your attitude is a bit too... perfectionistic? I mean, look at the Valve maps. A huge amount of players play them every day and they're far from perfect. Because it doesn't matter. Only a tiny fraction of players would ever notice something as insignificant as... bomb cart tracks that overlap each other.
In my opinion, you should just go ahead with your map. If it's not released in time, as you said, all efforts will be in vain. It's a sad fact, but nobody cares about how something was made: What matters is only the product.
There's a point of saturation and there are diminishing returns in playtesting. That's good because sometimes, you're just clinging to your map.
You can never finish a map anyway, you can only stop working on it.
/rant
Bad maps are only played by a select few here, those who still actually care enough to try them properly, so these maps will probably get better feedback, or none. When your map is well-known, it's played by way more players, so you obviously get more clutter. On top of that, if the map is also good, testers used to way worse maps won't even see any problems, let alone comment on them.
Or maybe your attitude is a bit too... perfectionistic? I mean, look at the Valve maps. A huge amount of players play them every day and they're far from perfect. Because it doesn't matter. Only a tiny fraction of players would ever notice something as insignificant as... bomb cart tracks that overlap each other.
In my opinion, you should just go ahead with your map. If it's not released in time, as you said, all efforts will be in vain. It's a sad fact, but nobody cares about how something was made: What matters is only the product.
There's a point of saturation and there are diminishing returns in playtesting. That's good because sometimes, you're just clinging to your map.
You can never finish a map anyway, you can only stop working on it.
/rant
Are you seriously whining about this Icarus? You claim that you are receiving the wrong kind of feedback, feedback that just isn't helpful. Well aside from the fact that you are getting a crap ton of feedback that is probably good, you have to realize that not everything is going to be gold.
A prime example of such may be the posts you put into my thread, let's refresh shall we:
[ame="http://forums.tf2maps.net/showpost.php?p=92263&postcount=25"]TF2Maps.net - View Single Post - CTF Montezuma [Contest Entry][/ame]
This is quite clearly the kind of feedback you're referring. Perhaps if you want some better quality feedback you should set an example and not bitch to others with your unnecessary hatred. You are the one here who has the problem. The community while a bit over saturated is fine in the long run.
Everyone here has supported you and what have you done in return? Very little except throw it back into their faces. So before you start posting for more attention try and really think it through. Is your whining go to help you or alienate you?
A prime example of such may be the posts you put into my thread, let's refresh shall we:
[ame="http://forums.tf2maps.net/showpost.php?p=92263&postcount=25"]TF2Maps.net - View Single Post - CTF Montezuma [Contest Entry][/ame]
This is quite clearly the kind of feedback you're referring. Perhaps if you want some better quality feedback you should set an example and not bitch to others with your unnecessary hatred. You are the one here who has the problem. The community while a bit over saturated is fine in the long run.
Everyone here has supported you and what have you done in return? Very little except throw it back into their faces. So before you start posting for more attention try and really think it through. Is your whining go to help you or alienate you?
- Dec 28, 2008
- 944
- 1,152
If I'm honest.
Good Feedback > Bad feedback > No Feedback
I notice more and more maps are getting a "Well this might be too open" or some other short sentances, generally, is better than that poster just not giving anything at all. So be thankful you get feedback, when there are some maps that go with very little at all, and half the posts being the author with new releases.
**This is not directed at anyone in particular, just saying**
Good Feedback > Bad feedback > No Feedback
I notice more and more maps are getting a "Well this might be too open" or some other short sentances, generally, is better than that poster just not giving anything at all. So be thankful you get feedback, when there are some maps that go with very little at all, and half the posts being the author with new releases.
**This is not directed at anyone in particular, just saying**
Caliostro
L6: Sharp Member
- Jul 6, 2009
- 261
- 110
This.
I liked this map, but somewhere along the road I got so sick of playing it daily or every other day, that it became a shore to do it.
It's just the release of a new map version every single time anything at all is changed, no matter how small and inconsequential, is extremely tiresome and makes it very hard to take you, or anyone else doing it for that matter, seriously.