TF2 Tightrope

Trotim

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Jul 14, 2009
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All you need to do to kill a taunting Phlog Pyro is to deal 1750 damage in under 2 seconds, which can only be done with crit stickies, knocking him in a death pit or backstabs. I wouldn't mind it giving you two seconds of uber, the problem is that it isn't and is thus really confusing as you'd assume you should be able to damage him.

The Phlog is also not reward for "sustained" damage, that's a poor choice of words considering like two crit flares is all it takes, or 1 DR Spy because the Phlog is also bugged as hell.

Yeah it's broken and its taunt effect way too strong but the lack of airblast makes it too weak for anything more than essentially griefing... we don't quite know how to fix it (it's hard to tell what Valve tried to achieve with it if anything, and keeping "no airblast" HAS to lead to a ridiculous other upside so it will always be extreme). We have to give other things that dominate the entire metagame priority like GRU, Enforcer, Atomizer...
 

Turbo Lover

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Feb 15, 2011
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Why does this add a 0.5 second safety net to the Market Gardener, Direct Hit airshots don't need to home-in to the guy you've popped in the air, why do I need extra time to ram a shovel down someone's throat.
 

Trotim

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Jul 14, 2009
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Why does this add a 0.5 second safety net to the Market Gardener, Direct Hit airshots don't need to home-in to the guy you've popped in the air, why do I need extra time to ram a shovel down someone's throat.

Because right now it requires absolute perfection to do and lag constantly screws you over. All the 0.5s of leeway do is actually let you get the crit on hit - you still won't hit when you miss. You can't get a 2nd crit in with it either. Right now sometimes your melee hits a frame or so too late which comes down to luck so you do 65 damage instead of 195 which is a big deal.

e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Jl5YgWMCas
You can't tell me that didn't deserve to be a crit, but on a normal server it wouldn't have been

So I agree with making it actually reliable, it's super situational as it is
 
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Pocket

Half a Lambert is better than one.
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Nov 14, 2009
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Is that how the Chargin' Targe currently works? Because I've had demoknights run into me, clearly swing after they stopped moving, and still get the crit, and I'd always wondered if it was a bug.
 

Turbo Lover

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Feb 15, 2011
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Because right now it requires absolute perfection to do and lag constantly screws you over. All the 0.5s of leeway do is actually let you get the crit on hit - you still won't hit when you miss. You can't get a 2nd crit in with it either. Right now sometimes your melee hits a frame or so too late which comes down to luck so you do 65 damage instead of 195 which is a big deal.

e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Jl5YgWMCas
You can't tell me that didn't deserve to be a crit, but on a normal server it wouldn't have been

So I agree with making it actually reliable, it's super situational as it is

Going back to my previous example, does a Direct Hit soldier deserve an airshot on someone that missed by mere inches? Maybe, but he didn't get it and it's not going to become easier any time soon. Lag might have been a factor for our Direct Hit buddy but he's going to have to suck that up, just like people who can't Garden on a normal server because they lagged, or their timing was too late.
 

Trotim

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Jul 14, 2009
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Is that how the Chargin' Targe currently works? Because I've had demoknights run into me, clearly swing after they stopped moving, and still get the crit, and I'd always wondered if it was a bug.

That is a bug introduced I think around the time of the Über Update, yeah. Both Targe and Screen have it, and while the rest of the charge works (white and green charge bar means normal damage, then minicrit damage, then crit) right now attacking right after a shield bash will ensure a critical hit which is broken.

Going back to my previous example, does a Direct Hit soldier deserve an airshot on someone that missed by mere inches? Maybe, but he didn't get it and it's not going to become easier any time soon. Lag might have been a factor for our Direct Hit buddy but he's going to have to suck that up, just like people who can't Garden on a normal server because they lagged, or their timing was too late.

You could argue like that, sure. But I say that right now the Market Gardener, despite its fun potential, is basically only used by dedicated jumping Trolldiers and one of the least equipped Soldier melees (together with the Pain Train which is infinitely less fun). The requirement for getting a crit is just far too strict.

By the way it's not like rocket projectiles are 1x1x1HU, the hitboxes are in fact lenient too... it's not like 0.5s of leeway make it overpowered in any way and if you feel saying "but I gardened before it was reasonable" in the future grows your e-peen go ahead man. You can still use it, now others can use it too, but it still remains a difficult and situational melee to use even then
 
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Turbo Lover

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Feb 15, 2011
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You could argue like that, sure. But I say that right now the Market Gardener, despite its fun potential, is basically only used by dedicated jumping Trolldiers and one of the least equipped Soldier melees (together with the Pain Train which is infinitely less fun). The requirement for getting a crit is just far too strict.

By the way it's not like rocket projectiles are 1x1x1HU, the hitboxes are in fact lenient too... it's not like 0.5s of leeway make it overpowered in any way and if you feel saying "but I gardened before it was reasonable" in the future grows your e-peen go ahead man. You can still use it, now others can use it too, but it still remains a difficult and situational melee to use even then

I concede. And yes, that will grow my E-Peen.
 

Ravidge

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May 14, 2008
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Well, I'm interested to a degree. But not enough to actually wade through and read pages upon pages of information.
There isn't so much a lack of interest, it's the disconnect of thought between onlooker and the tightrope designers. I, for example, have no idea what thoughts go into these changes, nor do I feel eager to go read looooong discussion threads about each item. So I'm left outside the door, just looking in occasionally to see what is new, but it's hard to stay "interested" if you're not directly involved.

Something like new stats to weapons need to be bite-sized information nuggets.
When I see a weapon that has tweaked stats on the wiki page or where-ever, I'm more interested in the thoughts behind it, rather than the actual stat tweak. And I don't want it too elaborate either.
Just: "<weapon> by default has a odd role in gameplay, by replacing <stat 1> with <stat 2> and increasing the power of <effect 1>, <wepaon> now fills a more specialized role for <class> trying to <obscure tactic>. Previous iterations of <weapon> we have tried are [...], however, they were not successful or required further tweaking. The current version you see is built upon these previous tests and is hopefully the most fun and balanced edition of <weapon> yet."

What are the intended pros of a edit? What design issue is it trying to fix? What possible consequences does it have? If buffing a weapon, does it contribute to the power creep? These questions must have been answered at some point, then why can't I get those answered in a easy format right away?
Once I know what the thinking is, I can look at the iteration history, and see what was going on and where it's heading.

Because for some of these stat edits I don't know what the reasoning was, and I don't really agree with all of them, but I feel left out of the thought and iteration process. Which I of course am, but if I wanted to take a stance on anything I must really dig deep in the site to build myself a platform to argue my view on a stat change. And I'm not prepared to do that, and I'm sure the tightrope guys aren't willing to restart the argument from square 1 every time a new guy comes along and goes "HAY!".

Basically what I'm saying is as a bystander, it's hard to grasp what the thinking is behind these edits. There's a lot of "Why?" questions without accessible answers for people who don't want to enter the forum section.

I probably contradict myself a little in all of this, saying I want to have an opinion with some weight while skipping over the discussion and theorycrafting parts of the development cycle for these item changes.
But what can I say, as a interested onlooker I don't want to get my hands dirty, but I still want to judge the results and be taken seriously (ha, I wish) when ever I have a concern.

--Edit--
About the article: It's a good read, but the poll at the end is hard to take a stance on.
You clearly went through the (mostly) negatives and positives, but you don't compare it to the other syringe guns, at least not in any sense that would help me as a voter.
Again, I have to read between the lines to find answers to my questions.
What design issue does the weapon have: The trade-off for lower sustained survivability is not comparable to the supposed gain in burst self-healing.
What are the intended pros of the change: giving the medic the ability to self overheal increases survivability in situations where previously the blutsauger effects would have been nonfunctional.
Does this add to the power creep: No idea, needs thorough comparisons between all the alternative weapons simultaneously, extra hard to do since effects are involved and not just damage. Initial gut-feeling says it doesn't empower the medic to any real degree.
 
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Trotim

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Jul 14, 2009
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Well, I'm interested to a degree. But not enough to actually wade through and read pages upon pages of information.
There isn't so much a lack of interest, it's the disconnect of thought between onlooker and the tightrope designers. [...]
What are the intended pros of a edit? What design issue is it trying to fix? What possible consequences does it have? If buffing a weapon, does it contribute to the power creep? These questions must have been answered at some point, then why can't I get those answered in a easy format right away?
Once I know what the thinking is, I can look at the iteration history, and see what was going on and where it's heading.

Definitely good points. That the changelogs and Wiki are brief and the forum discussions elaborate is imo not really a problem but the lack of a "Player's Changelog" with more but basic information is.

While we do browse other forums to gauge public opinion generally we still have to do the weapon discussions on our forums. That it seems somewhat daunting is a big issue because we actually depend on community feedback a lot. I can at least assure you nobody minds when an old topic is brought up again, often suggestions people think have been made a ton had in fact never been mentioned at all actually. Hell it would be great if more people could join in and ask about changes they don't understand too, we can just explain.

It's not really "Tightrope Designers" anyway. Yeah there are some general Balance Design guidelines but every suggestion comes from normal players. What changes to test is based on priority and how hard it is to code, sure, but other than that there's a lot of flexibility.

About the article: It's a good read, but the poll at the end is hard to take a stance on.
You clearly went through the (mostly) negatives and positives, but you don't compare it to the other syringe guns, at least not in any sense that would help me as a voter.
Again, I have to read between the lines to find answers to my questions.
[...]
Well... the poll might have been added a tiny bit after the column was already finished and written, yeah. It's true that e.g. the Crossbow is never even mentioned... it's hard to write columns a bit more broad and indepth than the Wiki without being too complicated that can be interesting to both more casual and more veteran players. And yeah, some knowledge about the game is presupposed.

In the end the column is there to inform people (of a wide audience) of general balance design thinking processes, make them come back regularly as well as be a bit more emotionally involved due to the polls. We're trying but it will take a short while to really take off, and if all interested bystanders left comments, even just short ones, that would be sped up considerably.

Bad excuses aside, really glad to get some early proper feedback like that now. It helps a lot, thanks.
 
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Mar 23, 2010
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from a comptf2 standpoint, the kritz is often used to surprise the enemy team. if a scout gets too close, he can kind of tell from the particles or the model. new sounds + new backpack would make it really hard to hide it.
 

Pocket

Half a Lambert is better than one.
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I've honestly never paid much attention to the medic's backpack, but especially when I'm the one being healed, which is the only time it really matters. The decision to print the name of the medigun on the patient's HUD indicator was a great idea... and their failure to modify the code to override custom names was terrible for the same reason. The Quick-Fix also uses a custom healing sound for anyone who's too busy watching who they're shooting at to notice some small print on the screen; I don't think the Kritzkrieg has one.

It can be easy to overlook that guaranteed critical hits does not only mean “triple damage” but also “no damage falloff”. Damage falloff refers to the distance modifier in damage calculation, specifically that shots at enemies farther away do less – as low as 50% – damage. This means long-range shots will still do insane damage which makes it very good at clearing contested chokepoints from afar.
I never noticed that before. Although it does explain why I was getting sniped by a heavy's minigun earlier today.
 

Ravidge

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May 14, 2008
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Less random is better.
That is my opinion for skill-based competitive games, sometimes a little random is good. But generally the fewer things that can be attributed to luck, the more enjoyable it is to play and watch.

Since the Olympics are happening, I'm going to make the easy parallel that luck has no place in sports, and neither should it in competitive games.
The fencing athletes are not randomly given swords of massively varying lengths.
Or suddenly a springboard randomly appearing at the high-jump finals, how lucky!
But there is still some minor luck in events. The wind is a real hassle for all outdoor events, especially when you're throwing things or running.
It can work against you, or carry you, or stop completely, roll a die to see which you get when it's your turn to throw/run/jump/whatever.

I don't think you can make a game multiplayer game that is completely non-random. Not a reasonably complex game at least. There will always be some miniscule thing that isn't predictable, but that is fine. I still stand by the "less random is better" statement.
 

Trotim

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Jul 14, 2009
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whats this random firing delay in sc2 that is mentioned in the article?

There is a random delay added to (or subtracted from) the attack speed of a unit each time it attacks. The random delay is usually randomly selected between -0.0625 (faster) and 0.125 seconds (slower), but the following units have different bounds for the random delay:

Battlecruiser: -0.0625 to 0.1875
Point Defense Drone: 0
Reaper D-8 Charges: 0.1 to 0.5

For example, the D-8 Charge's period is 1.8, which is shown as its speed in-game, but with the delay it takes between 1.9 and 2.3 seconds between attacks. The random delay usually has minimal in-game consequences, but it does mean that when multiple of the same unit type attack a target together for an extended period of time, their attacks can drift apart from each other instead of being at exactly the same time. It also means that it's possible for one unit to lose to another of the same type even though it attacked first, though it's more likely that the first to attack will win.
http://sc2pod.com/wiki/Attack_speed

Note that these random delays are NOT accumulative!
E.g. a Siege Tank in Siege Mode fires every 3 seconds but each shot may be premature up to 0.0625 or delayed up to 0.125 seconds; however because it is not accumulative this means when it fires 100th times the hundredth shot will be at max delayed by 0.125 (or premature by 0.0625) seconds.
http://sclegacy.com/forums/showpost.php?p=179521&postcount=33
 
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