PL Stroika

[bob+M|M+]

 

[Harribo]

this shall be my new avatar, I got a powerjack kill while in there too

 

[Sergis]

Thats how OP enforcer is - pyros are trying to hide from it in nuclear bombs. Enforcer is more dangerous than a nuke!

 

[Sergis]

coming up:

the battle against fall damage continues

new dynamic element - this path will retract after blu reaches the cart after the crane lands it, making it harder for red to hold that one choke

slightly larger turnable so that source troll physics don't push players off it

 

[LeSwordfish]

I can't help feeling that the amount of work you are putting into this moving spawn idea and the amont of sacrifices you have to make for it might not be worth it. The other changes look good though: i look forward to playing it.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

here is the feedback

And here is your demo

 

[Sergis]

Regarding the gameday comments about me ignoring feedback - I don't. I sometimes disagree though and in cases of conficting feedback (like "the container spawn is cool" and "container spawn sucks") if I listen to one feedback, I'm forced to ignore another. Obviously in such cases I will pick the option I like.

Regarding the one path for red thing - I gave only one path to red because I do not consider counterattacking all that important and red team was counterattacking in a2 test way too easily. Scouts, pyros and such can satisfy their need for flanking as soon as they get up the path or within the last point area. There is no need to give flanks everywhere for the sake of giving flanks. The red team is supposed to be pushed back to final area easily and then to stay there and defend, which is accomplished by bottlenecking their counterattacks.

Regarding me talking shit and one path for red thing being used, here are some examples of red only having one path for nonrocketjumpers.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9180221/TF2/pl_goldrush0006.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9180221/TF2/pl_goldrush0005.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9180221/TF2/pl_goldrush0004.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9180221/TF2/pl_goldrush0003.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9180221/TF2/pl_goldrush0002.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9180221/TF2/pl_badwater0001.jpg
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/9180221/TF2/pl_badwater0000.jpg

I can put another path up near the path that stays open, however so far I haven't seen a real need for it. If the one path thing will cause an actual, not a theoretical problem, I'll be sure to make another way.

The one path to somewhere might be a problem most of the time, but not here.

I can't help feeling that the amount of work you are putting into this moving spawn idea and the amont of sacrifices you have to make for it might not be worth it. The other changes look good though: i look forward to playing it.

There aren't really that many sacrifices. All I have done is added a brush and spammed some props

 

[LeSwordfish]

I was thinking of the propspam, and how, in the name of sticking with your cool idea, you've had to disregard other things, such as the gameplay influence of a scramble route that gives you a major height advantage over that choke-ish area. It's not so bad... i just feel that if you must be tied to one idea, do so because you are a hundred percent sure it massively improves gameplay and that no matter what you do for it it is an improvement: here we seem to differ, since i reckon the container spawn is a cool idea but not actually sufficiently intersting to justify mucking about with the props.

Also, the train track from under the container spawn, that goes to blues forward spawn kept confusing me: i kept trying to follow it like you normally do with the track.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

I still think that the way you are going about doing it is not the best, but that is just me. The way Valve does it, there is some sort of counter for Red, usually a good height advantage. I didn't see an effective upper height advantage for Red.

Something else I noticed and forgot to mention is that the upper routes and the verticle scale is massive, just moving up/down feels long (if that makes sense).

The map seems very scatter-brained and (to be honest) kind of sloppy. I feel like I see a lot of tieing dynamic elements to another dynamic element without giving regard to transition or flow of the game/players. But again, that is just me.

 

[Sergis]

I was thinking of the propspam, and how, in the name of sticking with your cool idea, you've had to disregard other things, such as the gameplay influence of a scramble route that gives you a major height advantage over that choke-ish area. It's not so bad... i just feel that if you must be tied to one idea, do so because you are a hundred percent sure it massively improves gameplay and that no matter what you do for it it is an improvement: here we seem to differ, since i reckon the container spawn is a cool idea but not actually sufficiently intersting to justify mucking about with the props.

Also, the train track from under the container spawn, that goes to blues forward spawn kept confusing me: i kept trying to follow it like you normally do with the track.

The height advantage route is really available not because of anti-fall damage props, but because of sighline blocking crate. All I have to do is put another crate on top of that one to cut the route off for non-advanced movement classes, which I probably will.

There is a red sign pointing up right above blue forwardspawn exit, but it's kinda in a shadow now that I have added a route above it. I'll make it more noticeable.

I still think that the way you are going about doing it is not the best, but that is just me. The way Valve does it, there is some sort of counter for Red, usually a good height advantage. I didn't see an effective upper height advantage for Red.

Something else I noticed and forgot to mention is that the upper routes and the verticle scale is massive, just moving up/down feels long (if that makes sense).

The map seems very scatter-brained and (to be honest) kind of sloppy. I feel like I see a lot of tieing dynamic elements to another dynamic element without giving regard to transition or flow of the game/players. But again, that is just me.

Reds have a heightadvantage ramp near their spawnexit, also a ramp right above final cp that is protected from snipers by the building in front of it. Also keep in mind that once Blu drops down, they can't easily run away, which is also an advantage for Red.
Theorycrafting aside, there were plenty of Red players beyond the onepath area well after the altpath was retracted. I might not be doing it the best way, but I'm doing it in a way that works.

There are a few places where I have bigger than usual height differences. The crane liftoff area for example has 384 unit heighadvantage, however I want blu to secure that courtyard easily, so it ties in well with my goals. Also some buildings are quite tall because of optimization purposes, because I want people to be able to ride the cart and not see too much popping in.

I'm not really sure what do you mean with the dynamic element tying in regards to gameflow as none of the elements influence another in any way.
I think that the scatterbrain feel you get is because of me using more dynamic elements than most maps and two of them being gameflow altering. Instead of "push cart - push cart - push cart - wait for lift - push cart - push cart - push cart" I have "push cart - gather trackpieces - push cart - wait for turntable - push cart - attack the cart landing area - push cart - push cart" which interrupts the cart pushing more than usual.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

I guess that is true, but remember that this contest is about how well you can use dynamic elements in a map, and frankly I feel like you have some good idea's, but their usage aren't the best. You should take what you have and try to make it so that flow around those area's is good. (As a note, this is something that I warned about early on in this contest... Don't be too overly dynamic, or the map has the risk of falling apart)

A lot of the time, when Blu gather cart pieces, and then ride the elevator, that should be a time for red to set up defense. I don't see that. Now, with that being said, I haven't re-watched your Demo's or anything, and am just conveying what I'm seeing. Perhaps you should re-watch your demo and see if Red can set up a defense. If they can't, then maybe you should see if that is something that will help red, or are they building up too much and blu has issues pushing.


Just things I'm pointing out.

 

[Sergis]

When Blu is repairing the track, I don't want Red to set up defense. I want them to defend the trackpieces, which they do. The cart riding up the elevator really doesn't seem to affect the gameplay much and the turntable warehouse is kinda being defended less than i wanted. I guess I could make the turntable slower and add some more metal on the other end to make it easier to set up there.

 

[Sergis]

coming up:
redid the old crusher building with 2x5 diagonal mapping, getting rid of the last remains of the crusher

decided to listen to frozens feedback a little bit. hopefully i won't regret it

finally made this shootthroughable

 

[Prestige]

best map, greatest of the contest.

 

[Sergis]

best map, greatest of the contest.

not until i make push toward crane easier

 

[Sergis]

rewatching STV, I noticed that one of the rounds that was defended before the crane was defended only becaause I got two random crockets on a cart surrounded by 5 Blu players in overtime. damn crits ruining my perception of map balance.

anyway, stuff that's coming up:

made cp1 area more engyfriendly

intel is now locked away until cp1 is capped

freed up some more space around the turntable

 

[Sergis]

more comings up:

added a door to compensate for the widened turntable area

moved cp3 forward a bit and made it a regular cp instead of touch to cap

cut out a window so that people can see the exit from the last area easily

 

[Sergis]

interesting how pushing a pyrofriendly area only 128 units wider made it seem almost overscaled. i'll push it back 64 units and see what happens. the cart landing area probably is going to be compressed a bit as well.

 

[Sergis]

I was thinking how should I fix the cartswap making blue lose in overtime. I could figure out some entity cleverness, but after getting all my dynamic elements work, im somewhat tired of messing with entities. So I think I'll just add 5 - 10 seconds every time something overtime-loss-risky happens. It's a lazy solution, but it will work and I cbf looking for a better one.

 

[Sergis]

regarding the comments about track pieces being too close - I want the track to be directly visible and first track piece really easy to get, since the track repair is a new thing in tf2, and also I have to keep it as a small local scenario as per contest rules. With the current area size, which is the same as in a1, and a sentry or two, that area can get some good fighting.