Stacking teams after a scramble.

[Dr. Spud]

I think we should stop pretending this thread is about considering a plugin.

I don't get all the hate at Trotim/Selentic. They consistently show up to gamedays and sometimes fill the server with testers.

Yeah Sel is being kind of a dick, but only after being provoked. And there always seems to be someone or another provoking him. I'd probably be a dick too if someone kept taking shots at me because I had a furry spray.


Also, seriously, the elephant in the room is the furry hate. I'm watching the chatroom talk about "Make a poll to ban furries from tf2m" as I type this. I don't even. Of all the things to be a source of drama, this is what makes people uncomfortable? Really?

 

[Prestige]

i remember when i scrambled an imp on hoist, sel did his thing and then they won pretty handily because they had a medic and we didnt. the next round we got 3 heavies and 2 medics and rolled harder probably.

s+t made some poor innocent souls play heavy on a payload, stuck to the cart. on the other hand, they could have gotten good at demo or something.

 

[Trotim]

Just to clarify that chatlog: the quoted portion was already after several messages and after me having been on RED team for half the map without Sel. Then I wanted to switch to his team and immediately got told off again. Was frustrated myself because I was Medic, then Engie and nobody supported me so I wanted to switch so I could play what I have been playing most of the time lately again - Soldier/Demo/Heavy (all of which heavily rely on getting heals to get anything done).

I also distinctly remember switching back to RED again basically right away so I dunno why that's not been quoted. I know I've also said something along the lines of "if you'd just asked more politely nobody would've had a problem with it".

Anyway I'm fine with not being allowed to gamedays anymore if it really bothers some of you so much

 

[Deodorant]

...and would rather just ruin our ability to enjoy the game because that's easier.

Wait, wait, what? Are gamedays supposed to be enjoyable?

Anyhow, my spontaneous and uneducated opinion - based solely on whatever's been posted in this thread - is that the best option would be to implement three plugins; One to prevent restacking, one to make scrambles score-based rather than random, and one to allow balance buddies. That way Sel and Trotim can have their fun without risking team imbalance.

EDIT: Fuck, apparently I just became a 'Senior member'. Does that mean I have to start making playable maps?

 

[nightwatch]

EDIT: Fuck, apparently I just became a 'Senior member'. Does that mean I have to start making playable maps?

If you donate like me you can change that and no one will ever expect anything from you.

 

[drp]

Man.. What a cluster fuck..

I'll put this to rest (maybe... probably not)

Scramble is not needed, imo. I, however, don't attend game days anymore. So I could be wrong. This is why I let the site admins/mods call the shots.

I do have some thoughts on this though. If you cant play with your friends while testing maps, game days can get dull. Fast. I think we should just appreciate anyone who joins the game to help members test their maps.

Donators who run their own map testing can run a map test the way they see fit, short of banning/kicking/abusing their admin.

Members running game days for the community through TF2M need to adhere to what a site admin decides. If they decide no scramble plugins, then its final.

If you do have a problem with this or a TF2M staff member, please contact me on the forums directly.

While I don't visit the site every day, I do still respond when needed.

 

[drp]

Let me add by saying that we do not officially have a stance on team stacking. It's not encouraged, but there is no rule against it.

I, alongside Ravidge, don't believe that a player can have an overwhelming impact on a game to completely trash a game test.

 

[Sel]

So basically you asked only one Admin about this issue, sorry but Prestige didn't really contribute to this, so don't mention him.

Prestige told me that he told you to chill after I talked to him about it.

While clearly if you had asked harribo, or any other mod, you would get a completely different opinion about this. So don't base one persons opinions as whole communities.

As far as I know Harribo was completely uninformed on the actual issue and was responding to your loaded question with an "in general" post. Ravidge was informed on the issue, and he told you twice you could not enforce these rules. You're like a child trying to cherry pick permission from another parent after one of them told you, "no".

Also, I do agree with Rikka, I never ever mentioned pocketing as the issue, and both of you Sel and Trotim should stop bringing that up, as that doesn't contribute in anyway.

Yeah because clearly that's not what this thread is about, clearly you singled us out in the last few gamedays for some other reason not actually related to pocketing.

Cut the act, anyone informed on this issue with an ounce of sense knows full well your little crusade is aimed directly at us.

There was a clear and obvious conflict, and it was just pushed off, instead of providing a more immediate (though temporary) solution. If such a solution was put in place, then things might've gone more smoothly and been resolved a bit better

I'm not sure how much simpler this can be made. He tried to pull his new rule in the gameday before yesterday's, he was told by an administrator not to, and then the next week he comes back with it and makes it blatantly clear he doesn't give a fuck that an admin told him not to do it.

I'm watching the chatroom talk about "Make a poll to ban furries from tf2m" as I type this.

Please tell me you're joking. This is actually an issue LOL?

 

[LeSwordfish]

Why is everyone having trouble with this "Don't be a prick" thing?

 

[Tekku]

Yeah because clearly that's not what this thread is about, clearly you singled us out in the last few gamedays for some other reason not actually related to pocketing.

First of all, I didn't want to add anything else to this thread, but you saying that, made me to.

So I don't see actually see myself mentioning pocketing in any form when I said these things, if you think that "Don't teamstack after a scramble" means that, then it's your problem.

TechTF : Sel and Trotim, if you will teamstack after a scramble like last gameday, I will kick you both without questioning.

TechTF : I'm warning you again, If you teamstack with Trotim after a scramble, I'm going to kick you.

Yes, now I am aware that I had set this rule quite harshly, a polite way would be better, but what has been done has been done.

Also if you find me saying that pocketing is the issue, feel free to post that, as right now, you saying that is absolutely incorrect.

 

[Sel]

So I don't see actually see myself mentioning pocketing in any form when I said these things, if you think that "Don't teamstack after a scramble" means that, then it's your problem.

One player indiscriminately changing teams to play with a friend is never going to qualify as team stacking. Please stop insulting everyone's intelligence by pretending that is the issue here.

Yes, now I am aware that I had set this rule quite harshly, a polite way would be better, but what has been done has been done.

Whether you said it politely or not is irrelevant, you still would have gotten stopped by Ravidge. The only thing that needs to be done here, is you need to stop pursuing your little crusade against me and Trotim under the guise of "team balance".

 

[GPuzzle]

As much as I have read this thread and thought about it, I'll put my position here:

Selentic and Trotim DO have a certain advantage, due to pratice, experience, and the fact they trust eachother.

And also means that they will pose a certain challenge, and that's sure to happen (skilled players in pub servers, friends actually playing, and not screwing around) in any server. And even thought they do pose a challenge, that doesn't mean they are unbeatable.

Since they're beatable, they're kind like bosses from RPGs, or even, for example, incredibly skilled players, that one position of that sentry, or that structured team.

You have to work together to beat them.

And isn't that what TF2 is about? Working as a team.

Stopping people from stacking will actually mean that if you want to play with your friends, you have to get early.

And people tend to play better and have more fun when they are with their friends.

So if you're try to stop people from stacking, you need a half-decent scramble team plugin, that goes by points instead of random.

That way the losing team might be able to win.

So instead of a plugin that stop people from stacking, how about a decent scramble plugin?

 

[ForbiddenDonut]

The "debate" going on here interests me very little, but I did want to chime in that I think the entire point of gamedays is totally being bypassed in this thread.

The focus is really on the map testing. And if the map is not getting properly tested, then direct action should happen and it should stick. We should be a mature enough community where a plugin isn't necessary. Attending a gameday should mean you come ready to give feedback and do what it takes to help our community members develop their work.

If that means abiding a scramble, so be it. You can switch over when the round ends or the map changes. Totally not the end of the world. I am not specifically referring to Sel or Trotim - it's just a common courtesy to the mapmaker that we, as members of this community, are willing to go out of our way to support each other.

And I certainly don't think this needed to be exploded into this shitshow of a thread. We're better than this.

 

[Tarry H Sruman]

We're better than this.

nuh uh

 

[GPuzzle]

Donut, we are Hammer addicts throwing rat carcasses at each other. Don't pretend we are anything else, you know it's true.

 

[Pocket]

My stance on this is that the point of testing is to see how a map would hold up in a real-world scenario. Games where some players are more experienced at the game or have better teamwork or even have access to more weapons, and the other team has to figure out how to counter it, are such a scenario. It's better to make a map that can hold up against that occasionally happening than to expect the players to accommodate the map.

That said, we only have so many regulars in our gamedays. If those people insist on playing the same way every time, whether it's expecting to always be paired up with the same teammates or just only playing one or two classes with preferred loadouts, we're not going to get as much variety in the results as we'd like. Normally I'd say we just need to run tests more often, but I suspect we'd still mostly just get the same people, especially with how sparse our impromptu events have been lately. Forced team scrambles isn't really the best solution, but if you do get moved to a different team and find that your usual approach is not working anymore — hey, you have eight other classes to choose from and eleventy billion different loadouts. The beauty of this game is that a single player can be many different things at different times, so why not try it? And if you're having a hard time having fun as other classes, maybe it's partly the map's fault, and maybe you should bring that up.

Further from the topic but relevant to what happened yesterday, I think that "I'm running the test, so I can do whatever I want" is a shitty attitude to have, but I couldn't help but think that that's the sort of thing you get when being in charge of something is a privilege people have to pay for. I don't know of any better incentive to get people to pay for VIP access, though.

Oh, and that "butt buddy" comment was out of line. Whatever issues you have with each other that's leading to personal comments like that, you need to leave them at the door.

 

[Sel]

[SM] ADMIN: Toggled a scramble
[SM] Teams will scramble in 5 seconds.
[SM] Sel is trying to re-stack the teams. For shame!
*scramble*
TechTF : Ha sel
Master of Puppies : noice!
[dolt] re.wind : hah

(it used to not block team changes until the actual scramble occurred)

Oh so we stealth implemented this (Or maybe it was just a fluke, either way there's still a discussion to be had here)? It was already clear scramble had no concern with balancing teams anyway and us playing together was as no more likely to skew or balance the teams than the actual scramble, but whatevs.

It's cool though most of the maps we play are more fun when you play them like this for the first 3 minutes, it's a very new and interesting playstyle for me.

Actually no, I'm lying, it's really boring.

Also fun fact, that scramble stacked the teams so far in favor of red that it wasn't even a contest. I'm sure that was a lot of fun for everyone, and the kicker is that had me and Trotim been on blue together that round would have probably been fun and challenging for everyone.

So it should be obvious now that we've "tried" Tech's solution (which wasn't really a solution in the first place since the functionality he suggested was more or less already present) that it doesn't work. So how about we do something that will actually improve team balance rather than try to specifically ruin the game for people who work with each other.

Either reconfigure scramble to actually take player scores into account and balance accordingly, and add a function to keep pairs together, or remove this idiotic team switch blocking function that has repeatedly proven to be completely useless. Thanks!

 

[Tarry H Sruman]

Option C:

 

[Tekku]

Reply to sel's post.

Just let you know that nothing has been added, as we had this thing even before I made this thread.
So right now I don't know why are you complaining about this, but didn't do that months ago?

 

[Sel]

So right now I don't know why are you complaining about this, but didn't do that months ago?

Except I did

@tarry yeah man let's just ignore the issues in our tests and not even bother trying to improve them and make a better testing environment for everyone, good initiative I applaud you!