KotH shipment (now in KOTH Flavor, and optimized!)

[discobandit]

This is definitely more of an art exhibit than a good level.

 

[(s2a) yahodahan]

Fr0Z3n- Right, I'll add that disclaimer/description ASAP. You make a good point on player's joining in- I had been thinking mainly for players who are in from the start. Perhaps, then, I could dig out some area behind those pushed-in containers, to make real spawn-rooms, or even one in each corner. By too small, I meant, if the map had traditional spawn rooms, they would be hard to make work without the other team standing right over the entrance. As it works now, it's just plain random, so the opposing team can't just hold one position. Of course, that's a two-edged blade...

Can I ask how many players everyone has tried this with? Yes, with only a few players, it could be camped- but in our experience, with 12+ players, it's impossible to stand still long enough to camp, without getting hacked to bits...

 

[(s2a) yahodahan]

discobandit- well, i'm glad that much is enjoyed thanks!

 

[Fruity Snacks]

with 12+ players, it's impossible to stand still long enough to camp, without getting hacked to bits...

See, it sounds like your dieing anyways with a ton of people which doesn't seem fun.

 

[LeSwordfish]

This sounds like a ridiculous deathmatch. Random spawns? That sounds like... urgh

I can see how it would be fun. But... yeah. Dont be at all suprised if many, many people say it isnt.

Random spawns throw class balance all out of whack. Snipers (already shafted on this map from the looks of things), heavies, and soldiers: all depending on chokepoints and combat flow are simply screwed: how can you snipe when an enemy can come from any direction? Spies, pyros, scouts, engineers and demomen are all overpowered: the first lot by being able to spawn right behind their enemy, the others with camping. And neither being killed by a git with a sentry next to your spawn, or a lucky bastard who spawns behind you and gets a free instakill is any fun.

 

[Sergis]

theoretically you can coordinate your team to converge and stick together and emerge above the chaos and stuff. realistically it will probably be nothing more than chaos. pure chaos. and for some, pure fun.

 

[LeSwordfish]

It sounds like a map tailored to ONE taste only. If you want the Call of Duty experince, why are you playing tf2?

 

[(s2a) yahodahan]

Hi Sergis, thanks for the comment-

Props to anyone who can play as a team in this map! You are right, it's just pure chaos, and therefore pure fun for those who enjoy it.

I play TF2 because I love the game, the art style, and the community. I don't play COD because I don't own the game, and don't care to. For me, chaotic, frantic, random spawning, unique, maps are great fun fun, especially teamed with the TF2 play mechanics, classes, etc.

I believe, if people are willing to move a little out of their comfort zones, give this a good try with enough players, they'll find the map is actually a LOT of fun to jump into, and go all out for a short period. Yes, you are going to die over and over, yes it's an insane frag-fest, but it's really a great time. There is an obvious shortage of this type of play in TF2, and so Shipment was built (ta-da)

 

[Fruity Snacks]

I play TF2 because I love the game, the art style, and the community. I don't play COD because I don't own the game, and don't care to. For me, chaotic, frantic, random spawning, unique, maps are great fun fun, especially teamed with the TF2 play mechanics, classes, etc.

I believe, if people are willing to move a little out of their comfort zones, give this a good try with enough players, they'll find the map is actually a LOT of fun to jump into, and go all out for a short period. Yes, you are going to die over and over, yes it's an insane frag-fest, but it's really a great time. There is an obvious shortage of this type of play in TF2, and so Shipment was built (ta-da)

Wait wait wait. You ported a CoD Map and you don't even have it?
Also you LIKE the things that offers (random spawns, "unique" maps, etc. etc... then why are you not playing it?

I would like it to be known, I'm not trying to discourage you from mapping, your detailing in the skybox looks great, nor am i trying to discourage you from porting maps (alright, no, I don't like ported maps unless they done VERY well, with consideration to the game being ported to) but it REALLY helps to at least own and play the map your porting in. The reason you don't see a lot of maps like this in TF2 is because the people who like these maps, are playing CoD or BF:BC2. If this is what you like, I'd suggest picking up CoD, or even better BF:BC2.

 

[(s2a) yahodahan]

It's a map that another in my group liked from COD, and sounded fun to play in TF2. So built it from reference images/etc, added some special touches, and here you see it.

I don't play COD because, well...it's multiplayer just doesn't interest me. It's too much of one thing, at least from what I've seen. Also, the community is much less mature (make that, just plain annoying). Not my type of thing.

I'd like to ask, what's wrong with a little merging of two game's aspects? If people didn't try unique combinations we wouldn't have all sorts of great things...

...may I be so bold as to say, we wouldn't even have TF2? "A violent, team based FPS game...with cartoony, silly characters? What a ridiculous idea!" Yet, look how far TF Classic has come since they ditched the standard CS/COD/etc style for a totally new one. "Team Fortress-styled" is now practically a buzzword.

I understand this map goes against all the rules of TF2, but (sorry, cliche) rules exist to be broken. This certainly isn't a perfect map, I'm sure there is a better balance to be struck, and that's why I'm hoping people will give it a proper test run and say "hmm, well, if you actually WANT this type of play, how about you do this..."

thanks Fr0Z3n

 

[Fruity Snacks]

I'm sorry, but it just confuses me, if you don't like CoD's multiplayer, why recreate it? If you WANT this type of play, Tf2 usually doesn't do this. BF:BC2 might be better for you. The community isn't like CoD's one bit. I play it and enjoy it.

But that doesn't mean I would make a BF:BC2 ported map.

I don't want to discourage you from porting this in. I really don't think that porting this map in, without playing it all (in CoD), nor with any regard for TF2 mechanics, was the, sorry to say it, most intelligent of ideas. You should really try to modify this to fit what you want, but also make it so that it is appealing to other people, not just CoD players.

Yes, rules are meant to be broken, and you broke many rules with this. But rules should be broken if they are first well thought out, based on the situation. This map does not show it. It looks like you took a CoD map, took out the CoD player models/weps and just stuck recklessly stuck it in the TF2 Universe without any regard for current TF2 mechanics.

I'm sorry to be harsh, but this is the cruel world of level design and especially porting maps between games.

 

[Dragonstorm24]

I would like to reiterate what I have said before and everyone else is saying, this was NOT designed for TF2 game mechanics or artstyle. One it is class based with no weapons pickup or complete loadout change so quick weapons and class overhauls for tight combat are out of the question. Secondly, it is TEAM Fortress 2 and that being said the mechanics are for team gameplay and thus you can't survive as one class without someone helping. Now there are team deathmatch maps like the Quake maps or Cyberpunk but they are a little more (little) thought out and a lot larger. The style that you are going for is similar to q3dm but the difference being, you can't place sentries or dispensers in q3dm, health is evenly placed, spawn points are widely spaced and even though it is random it is very unlikely to spawn right next to someone, and the map is a lot larger plus there are tiers. Then Cyberpunk has the same pluses and it also has more cover and team based spawns. Third is also that if you had played COD4 you would realize that this map is only played on a very few servers and most focus on maps like Backlot or Crash or Chinatown where gameplay is varied and a lot more engaging. As I have said before please expand on this idea, add more to your map and study popular dm maps don't constrain yourself to COD especially if you haven't even played it before. If you try to port a map look for games that are similar in gameplay to TF2 and if your favorite map doesn't, edit it to fit class and team based gameplay.

 

[(s2a) yahodahan]

Well, I guess it just comes down to opinions. I and a few others enjoy this map, and it was fun to build (most important). It could certainly use a lot of changes to fit into TF2, but fit in as it's own "gametype", as someone pointed out earlier.

Don't worry, I'm certainly not constraining myself to just this- we already released (this) map a while back, and have several more in-the-works (project ADHD, you might call it ) Shipment simply seemed like a fun map to remake, and was also my first TF2 map ever. (I released it under the "studio2a" group name awhile back, and just now changed it to KOTH, and optimized it for better FPS).

As a first map, I'm glad everyone likes the art, only wish the gameplay was better liked, but hey- can't win 'em all, eh?

 

[Dragonstorm24]

Don't worry, I'm certainly not constraining myself to just this- we already released (this) map a while back, and have several more in-the-works (project ADHD, you might call it )

I think you misunderstood me, by not constraining to COD I mean to edit your map so it references COD but is not an exact copy like this due to the fact that it doesn't play well in TF2, casual or otherwise. Most players want to have an experience in game where they can actually achieve something or, for casual play, actually have fun. This map is neither since before you try to cap everyone is already dead leading to just a stalemate, and you can't have fun since there is nothing to do, like buttons or fun little hidden things, and your dead before you can explore, get to another area, or do something silly (like hoovy stacking). All I'm saying is that you should've put more thought into gameplay and mechanics before choosing this idea and not being open to public opinion. If it was just for you and your group of friends then this fine but if you are expecting large group of players outside COD fans you need to expand and listen to public opinion.

 

[(s2a) yahodahan]

Sure, I'm all for finding a way to make this the most fun for everybody, while sticking to it's own particular "gametype", that's what I'm really looking for here. There have been some good suggestions, and I'll be implementing them soon. Mostly though, I see people listing their issues with the map based on it's gameplay type, which isn't reasonable- that's like saying "I don't like this map because I don't like Payload". ("I don't like Shipment because I don't like chaotic-frantic-frag maps").

Maybe I should make a better description, and clarify: "If you like to play, in TF2, a map that is just fast paced, constant, chaotic assault on a central point- how would you change this map to best play in that style?" If someone doesn't like that style, this map isn't for them, so it may play to a niche group. However, if you could picture such a map being fun, what would you like to see in it?

I would really like to push, also, that Shipment KOTH still needs to be played with a good full/semi-full server to be properly analyzed. I think when that happens, you'll see a much different story than what most people are assuming

 

[Fruity Snacks]

Sure, I'm all for finding a way to make this the most fun for everybody, while sticking to it's own particular "gametype", that's what I'm really looking for here. There have been some good suggestions, and I'll be implementing them soon. Mostly though, I see people listing their issues with the map based on it's gameplay type, which isn't reasonable- that's like saying "I don't like this map because I don't like Payload". ("I don't like Shipment because I don't like chaotic-frantic-frag maps").

Maybe I should make a better description, and clarify: "If you like to play, in TF2, a map that is just fast paced, constant, chaotic assault on a central point- how would you change this map to best play in that style?" If someone doesn't like that style, this map isn't for them, so it may play to a niche group. However, if you could picture such a map being fun, what would you like to see in it?

I would really like to push, also, that Shipment KOTH still needs to be played with a good full/semi-full server to be properly analyzed. I think when that happens, you'll see a much different story than what most people are assuming

Most of us have been mapping or playing tf2 for years, some even to TFC. People know what they are saying when they say it doesn't look like it will run well with a lot of people, they don't need to play with a ton of people to see this.

Going to your first point you made, that we are complaining about the gameplay type. We aren't talking about KoTH, we are talking about your implementation of KoTH and the spawns. In Tf2 people spawn in secluded area's, not the middle of the map. THAT is what we are talking about.

 

[(s2a) yahodahan]

Most of us have been mapping or playing tf2 for years, some even to TFC. People know what they are saying when they say it doesn't look like it will run well with a lot of people, they don't need to play with a ton of people to see this.

It's true, I'm just a very "see it to believe it" person, and would like to see how the map plays out in it's current form. You never know, it might just work- or it might fail completely, either way, I hope to find out for sure

Going to your first point you made, that we are complaining about the gameplay type. We aren't talking about KoTH, we are talking about your implementation of KoTH and the spawns. In Tf2 people spawn in secluded area's, not the middle of the map. THAT is what we are talking about.

That's actually what I'm saying, KoTH isn't the issue, it's this maps "custom gametype" if it can be called that, that people don't like. I'm not sure how to better descbribe things than my last post: "If you like to play, in TF2, a map that is just fast paced, constant, chaotic assault on a central point- how would you change this map to best play in that style?"

That is the question this map asks, and I'm totally open to suggestions! With the current resistance to the gametype, I'm not sure how much further I'll take the map, but hopefully it finds some interested players with ideas to improve it while keeping the play style.

 

[(s2a) yahodahan]

Honestly, if I have the time and interest, I will probably start a whole new map- Shipment is probably too extreme to be a good fit, I agree with you there. I would like to see some maps with, maybe slightly toned down, the same mentality though. It would be great to hear what people think would make such a map fun to play.

 

[Fruity Snacks]

Honestly, if I have the time and interest, I will probably start a whole new map- Shipment is probably too extreme to be a good fit, I agree with you there. I would like to see some maps with, maybe slightly toned down, the same mentality though. It would be great to hear what people think would make such a map fun to play.

Thats a good attitude, and I'm sure that there are plenty of people here who would help you get make that gametype. Try looking into some of the other custom KoTH maps, or even deathmatch maps and see what you can learn.

 

[tyler]

One thing you can look at is arena_pool_day. It used to be a CS map, I don't know what kind, but the guy that ported it to TF2 took one huge liberty: he added stairs to get on the roof.

Pool Day is kind of a dumb map and a bad idea to begin with, but the example is what is important here. TF2 is different, so the map needs to be different. Hell, just look at Badlands in TFC and compare it to what we have. Or Dustbowl, or 2fort. Try making spiritual successors rather than copies with swapped out assets.