Rocket Ravine

PL Rocket Ravine b6

DannBo

L1: Registered
May 9, 2010
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Updated the Download page with the new version. This should solve the edict overflow crash, as I've reduced the edicts down below 1400 (without players) from something like 1800. Let me know if there are any more problems with that and I can cut more if necessary. But it should be testable now on a full server.
 

Tinker

aa
Oct 30, 2008
672
334
From HH's map night:

Incredibly pretty map, and just walking around was fun (which shouldn't be underestimated). A few things with regard to gameplay:

BLU seemed to have a very easy time. For a bunch of the caps, the BLU spawn moves up right along side them, so much even that when I spawned and walked to the cart when the team cappedI saw my teammates coming from the spawn and be right there immediately. This seemed to make it incredibly easy for BLU to be at the cart 100% of the time - as opposed to the cart mostly being in RED's hands until BLU pushed through. Now, that may be too little experience with the map, but usually when people don't know maps well enough it's RED that tends to do well, instead.

You mentioned sniper lines: they're mostly fine, because they tend to focus on the area around the cart itself, which should be the most dangerous area to start with, but right at the end they look out directly on (see through) RED spawn doors all the way from very safe battlements. I could line up a shot from the heads of people inside the spawn and then shoot when they came out.

With regards to the railings: they do make for visual clutter, for sure, and they definitely don't need to be everywhere. At least make it so there's designated drop-down holes in the railings or remove them entirely in places where you want people to drop down (and for visuals sake make them into hazard strips or something similar). Railings tend to make explosives and sniper shots kind of awkward. No need to remove them all though, just around areas that aren't battlements or connection spots.

Tubes are fun.
 

DannBo

L1: Registered
May 9, 2010
27
13
From HH's map night:

Incredibly pretty map, and just walking around was fun (which shouldn't be underestimated). A few things with regard to gameplay:

BLU seemed to have a very easy time. For a bunch of the caps, the BLU spawn moves up right along side them, so much even that when I spawned and walked to the cart when the team cappedI saw my teammates coming from the spawn and be right there immediately. This seemed to make it incredibly easy for BLU to be at the cart 100% of the time - as opposed to the cart mostly being in RED's hands until BLU pushed through. Now, that may be too little experience with the map, but usually when people don't know maps well enough it's RED that tends to do well, instead.

You mentioned sniper lines: they're mostly fine, because they tend to focus on the area around the cart itself, which should be the most dangerous area to start with, but right at the end they look out directly on (see through) RED spawn doors all the way from very safe battlements. I could line up a shot from the heads of people inside the spawn and then shoot when they came out.

With regards to the railings: they do make for visual clutter, for sure, and they definitely don't need to be everywhere. At least make it so there's designated drop-down holes in the railings or remove them entirely in places where you want people to drop down (and for visuals sake make them into hazard strips or something similar). Railings tend to make explosives and sniper shots kind of awkward. No need to remove them all though, just around areas that aren't battlements or connection spots.

Tubes are fun.

Thanks for the feedback! I had an idea to delay the spawn move for BLU until the cart makes its way up the ramp leading to B. When I was making it, it seemed logical that BLU would "gain" control of the Point A building when capping that, but I can see your point.

As for the sniper sight lines I definitely plan to move a couple things around to break those up, at least the ones that point right towards BLU and RED spawn doors since that can be a problem.

I'll probably be taking out the railings that are everywhere surrounding point D, but I may leave some around the final point, particularly on the metal walkways around the rocket where I think they fit nicely.
 

UrbanX

L1: Registered
Dec 10, 2012
5
1
Railings seem fine to me. Just jump over them. Shouldn't have to remove some of them because some players can't find their space bar and crouch button. IMO the railings are relatively short and don't really obstruct shots unless you are aiming at someones feet but idk why would someone do that. Shooting from the ledge, the railings are below the players eye position and weapon. I dont see the problem. I like the look they give to the map.

In many places ammo is in very limited supply making engineer slow at building in some areas. The map overall does favor offense more especially at the start. 1 small ammo pack near gate and thats it for the team without having to walk way out of the way to get a useful amount to be effective in which case you aren't really saving any time and might as well just wait for the small ammo pack to respawn. Actually its not even that close to gate. Only supplies right at the gate is 1 small health pack on each side. I could not get my teleporter upgraded at all before gate opens. 1 tele( level 1) no sentry, no despenser. Blue steamrolls through before I can get anything done with it.
 
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DannBo

L1: Registered
May 9, 2010
27
13
Here are some comparison pics showing an alteration I've made to the shed to break an OP sniper sight line that could aim straight to BLU's spawn doors: (the first two are befores, the 2nd two are afters)
 
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UrbanX

L1: Registered
Dec 10, 2012
5
1
Here are some comparison pics showing an alteration I've made to the shed to break an OP sniper sight line that could aim straight to BLU's spawn doors: (the first two are befores, the 2nd two are afters)
That looks much better. Good job.
 

DannBo

L1: Registered
May 9, 2010
27
13
Released a short update today containing some bugfixes and other small changes based on the last round of beta testing, nothing major yet. There is now an ground level entrance to the cave at point B to make it easier to navigate in and out of the cave when the big shutter doors are still closed, and the two big problematic sniper sight lines that allowed you to see into BLU & RED spawndoors have been broken up. BLU's first spawnchange has now been delayed until the cart makes it up the hill towards point B, and there is a door blocking BLU access to the balcony by point B until the spawn change.


Here's a full list of changes
*Broke sniper sight line that sees BLU's first spawn through shed/tunnel by adding dip in shed
*Broke sniper sight line that sees RED's final spawn doors by adding doors to the outer final point
*Increased ammo abundance/pack sizes
*Add spectator cameras
*Delayed BLU's first spawn change until they make it up hill towards second point
*Added a few missing ammo/health floor patches
*Removed two old unnecessary forward roll zones
*Remove the clip that's blocking that one blu ammo pile by second point
*Clipped off the side columns on point 3
*Removed one way door that went through wall around point 3's location
*Added door blocking off balconies before point B for BLU until their spawn moves up
*Added ground level exit next to point B
*Added No-Entry labelled doors to BLU's 3rd spawn room doors for when the spawn is not accessible.
*Changed all forward pointing arrows to blue, backward arrows to red, for consistency
*Added no sentry sign to small tube exit to indicate that you cannot build sentries there
*Added respawn room visualizers to BLU's 3rd spawn room's lower exit
*Added/removed a few directional arrows
*Removed a buggy ladder in the open area after the third point
*Added some lighting origin entities for more consistent prop lighting
*Added maximum value to round timer (12 minutes)
*Lowered Point B's Hologram so it doesn't clip inside the building
*Tubes are now open to both teams on the end of the round for funsies.
*End Pit Doors now make a sound and have a smoother opening animation
 
Oct 6, 2008
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Ok – have had a chance to play this a few times now on a full 32 player server and this is nothing personal towards you – just overall feedback to help you improve the map.

General consensus – people dislike or hate the map in general – here are some of the reasons.

1. It’s way too big – running 1 minute to get to the front lines? At map start distance from red blue good then the map falls apart

2. Sniper lofts
- blue starting spawn – no way for spies / non jumping classes to get up there.
- Across from blue’s starting spawn – you need access to the loft on the left hand side for non-jumping classes. It also forces blue to funnel all down the tunnel or right of the tunnel so on red – guess where I’m going to put all my guns and most of the combat options. – maybe you should also put in side entrances to the tunnels so players have a chance at getting to the cart instead of a bullet to the head in sniper ally.

3. The staircase in that loft on the other side doesn’t take you to that ^^ loft it takes you around to the roof where it’s a skill jump to get onto it – you should make it so players can just run onto the roof.

4. Speaking of that roof – that centre railing is nice decoration but when decoration hinders game play you get rid of it. Players complained about not being able to move around freely.

5. Just after this – near cap one – you’ve got the building complex with all these places that go to nowhere other than dead ends other than that you’ve got all these paths that go all over the place – you think you’re on the way to the cart along a path you round a corner and bang – dead end. Also what’s with the door and some of the tunnel entrances? You could drive the Grey man’s big robot tank through some of them.

6. Is it windy in here or is that the breeze going through my head after a sniper bullet has gone through it? Meaning sight lines – this map is a sniper’s best dream!
One of the team’s had a really good sniper – his score was 177 all from sniping! Uneblievable! FIX IT!!!

7. There’s another spot – call it the big jump – big solid wall with single small box – unless you’re a jumping class – forget going that way – put in some stairs or more boxes for no jumping classes.

Over all – redo the map make it much smaller and address some of the concerns above.

Now for the good stuff:

People really like the look of the map and the work put into it – it’s just the gameplay that sucks.

They love the glass tunnels and maybe – you should add in more of these both for the red and blue teams (filter some of them to be team specific) – you could see players flying around and know where they’re going but do nothing about it – especially if they exit in a protected room.

But there in lies one of the problems – you have this great item that people love but players only have access to it after point x – then the access is closed down after blue caps Y. It’s also hard to do because it’s in a ravine – maybe these tunnels might be better off in a space based map – or you have to add more in – they were a lot of fun – maybe have variable speeds too?

The rocket launch at the end of the map – it’s cool but does it fit.

Now there was one point that I had a lot of fun it – section e – blue engie was around one corner with a level 3 gun and dispenser and I was around the other side of the corner with the same set up – neither of us could do anything because we’d get killed doing it – a fun Mexican standoff!

Well – I/we hope it helps you do an improved version for the next update – we really like the look but it’s the gameplay that’s bringing it down.
 
Oct 6, 2008
1,947
445
Updated the Download page with the new version. This should solve the edict overflow crash, as I've reduced the edicts down below 1400 (without players) from something like 1800. Let me know if there are any more problems with that and I can cut more if necessary. But it should be testable now on a full server.

Bring the ents down to under 1000 for max stability on a 32 player server.
 

DannBo

L1: Registered
May 9, 2010
27
13
Thanks for the feedback! Most of these are points I'm already working on fixing, the sniper sight lines & walk distances are the biggest complaints I've gotten so far, so I will be shrinking some areas down and try and rework some of the layout. It's a difficult balance since the more you shrink it and break up sightlines, the more chokey it gets. With this redesign I tried to alleviate some of that but it appears I've made it too large and open now, and so it suffers the opposite problem as it did before the redesign.

Also, could you elaborate on a few of these points:

- Across from blue’s starting spawn – you need access to the loft on the left hand side for non-jumping classes. It also forces blue to funnel all down the tunnel or right of the tunnel so on red – guess where I’m going to put all my guns and most of the combat options. – maybe you should also put in side entrances to the tunnels so players have a chance at getting to the cart instead of a bullet to the head in sniper ally.

3. The staircase in that loft on the other side doesn’t take you to that ^^ loft it takes you around to the roof where it’s a skill jump to get onto it – you should make it so players can just run onto the roof.

I'm not sure what the problem you are describing here is. We are talking about the loft across from BLU spawn correct? What access other than the stairwell are you saying it needs?

5. Just after this – near cap one – you’ve got the building complex with all these places that go to nowhere other than dead ends other than that you’ve got all these paths that go all over the place – you think you’re on the way to the cart along a path you round a corner and bang – dead end.

This is the comment I find the most perplexing. Dead ends? Paths that go all over the place? In that area there is one side path that goes through the building parallel to the track, and that's it, aside from a few balconies on either side that overlook the track and point B.

7. There’s another spot – call it the big jump – big solid wall with single small box – unless you’re a jumping class – forget going that way – put in some stairs or more boxes for no jumping classes.

There are two drop down places like this, I'm not sure which you are describing. May I ask why these are a problem? There are there primarily to allow BLU a flanking option.
 

Zed

Certified Most Crunk™
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Aug 7, 2014
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Screenshots and better structured sentences probably would have helped.
 
Oct 6, 2008
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445
sorry my bad wrote this form work am at home now

Across from blue start you need to put in access on the left into that balcony that faces blue spawn. Then inside that building I would close off the right side of the red riders staircase - it makes it easier and harder for red to fight - red now has a real reason to hold the building.

The way it is currently is that it's so wide open it forces blue to go the tunnel for maximum impact thus red knows where to set up.

After that tunnel (near cap one - the room with the 3 hanging bombs - should open up on cap or before hand - build flanking exit where you have the pipes - again easier/harder for both teams.

If you follow cart movement - at cap one you go through right tunnel and it gets confusing - have that tunnel go right through where the arrow is.

B entrance - left side- those stair cases - there's something there that I don't like can't put my finger on it.

re drop down's - yep I get the point of them but maybe they just need to be redesigned so it's no as ugly or obvious.
 

DannBo

L1: Registered
May 9, 2010
27
13
Across from blue start you need to put in access on the left into that balcony that faces blue spawn. Then inside that building I would close off the right side of the red riders staircase - it makes it easier and harder for red to fight - red now has a real reason to hold the building.

So you are suggesting I remove the stairwell to the loft in the building, and instead have an entrance into the loft on the side facing BLU's building? I'm not sure what you mean by the right side of the red riders staircase. I'm probably going to be reworking that area layoutwise so that there isnt such a huge sniper sightline anyways so that might fix the problem you are talking about.

The way it is currently is that it's so wide open it forces blue to go the tunnel for maximum impact thus red knows where to set up.

What about the flank route next to the tunnel on the outside?

After that tunnel (near cap one - the room with the 3 hanging bombs - should open up on cap or before hand - build flanking exit where you have the pipes - again easier/harder for both teams.

A prior version had the spawn room open as soon as BLU caps but people complained it put BLU too close to the cart too quickly, which is why I delayed it to the hill before point B. Which pipes? The ones in the little cave through the window that you can see in BLU's 2nd spawn? Screenshots would help immensely with your description here.


If you follow cart movement - at cap one you go through right tunnel and it gets confusing - have that tunnel go right through where the arrow is.

Again, not sure what you are describing, a screenshot would help. Right tunnel facing point B, or right tunnel facing point A?

re drop down's - yep I get the point of them but maybe they just need to be redesigned so it's no as ugly or obvious.

I'm open to suggestions. Though I'm more concerned with gameplay than aesthetic at the moment.
 
Oct 6, 2008
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I'll do some screenshots for you
 

DannBo

L1: Registered
May 9, 2010
27
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Thanks, and while you are doing that, it would be helpful if you could also include screenshots of sniper sightlines you think work and should stay, and which ones should be broken up since that was another big thing you mentioned.
 
Oct 6, 2008
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Ok Here you go:

Stairs up to the left - something to get onto the roof easier for no jumping classes
pl_rocketravine_b20000.jpg


Block off right door - put in tunnel to tunnel - blue no goes left and up - or left from the balcony up top
pl_rocketravine_b20001.jpg


Reverse angle - easier for red to get up and modifed could be a fun combat zone for both
pl_rocketravine_b20002.jpg


blue goes through here after cap 1 - leave the drop down on the other side
pl_rocketravine_b20003.jpg


this is the dead end thing - players go up to the battlement then right then right or left and the places seem to end - block of the stairs have them go though blue tunnel indicated - gives them either/or option to fight
pl_rocketravine_b20004.jpg


figured out what was bugging me - put in new step to balcony area and the inside stairs to the room with the hatch where they can exit
pl_rocketravine_b20005.jpg


Reverse angle showing the new alt path and steps
pl_rocketravine_b20008.jpg


the wall jump - give red the ability to get up or make it a ceiling drop down
pl_rocketravine_b20006.jpg


Top down blue now has easier flow at start - currently blue is force to gotop tow all the time - new alt paths on cap one triggers also drawn in
pl_rocketravine_b20007.jpg




Make tunnels go back and forth - don't block them - keep them open - put in a set for blue somewhere - make your lake smaller - reward the demoman with the sticky jumpsr allow them to go both wayss

Hope it helps!
pl_rocketravine_b20009.jpg
 
Oct 6, 2008
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God your post gave me a headache...

Ha! yep forgot to mention in that picture the blue is blue team movement, red is red team, yellow is the payload / modified payload route, the blue and red curved lines - sticky demomen and the X - well it either marks the spot or that's where the treasure is!:thumbup:
 

DannBo

L1: Registered
May 9, 2010
27
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I think I already addressed the 6th image in the latest version (it looks like you were playing b2?). There is now an entrance into the cave there which is more intuitive for entry and exit than the stairwells on the sides when the main door is closed.

Thanks again for the feedback. I think i'm going to be trying a slightly different layout for a few of these areas (particularly around point B), so that may or may not address some of the issues you've pointed out here.
 
Oct 6, 2008
1,947
445
You know what? Get rid of blue starting spawn - do it inside the building instead of having to cross those bridges - that would also cut down on the run time.

I should also note we play the maps on an insta respawn server so combat it pretty continuous.