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woops forgot :\
there's some layout tweaks I wanted to make before testing anyway
edit: updated
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sweet!
from the feedback page:
that was my intention! with occult I wanted to enhance vertical combat and water does just that by negating fall damage and boosting rocketjumps. I'm not sure why that would be a bad idea and the realtime reflection is going to look very nice :3bloodhound said:
mr.happy left some good feedback as well, I'll look into it. make a post here and I'll give you the thanks
updated to a2
-new path to mid
-fixed a problematic sightlines
-minor layout tweaks all over the map
-health/ammo pack relocations
http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=5109
-new path to mid
-fixed a problematic sightlines
-minor layout tweaks all over the map
-health/ammo pack relocations
http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=5109
Highlander tested, my p-rec demo: https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1281220/feedback/20120709_2103_koth_occult_a2_fjord_punzz.dem
In general it was okay... It felt a little lacking when it comes to setup area (where you build ubers and such). A lof of people were involved in every fight and a near full team wipe was needed to switch the owner of the cp.
The capture time on the point seemed really long as well.
As a scout I had 6 healthpacks to work with on this fairly small map and I felt I could just retreat and restock all the time (except when I engaged in these 7v7 all out brawls at the mid.
The map is lacking some oomph, I can't put my finger on it. There is something stale about the gameplay.
In general it was okay... It felt a little lacking when it comes to setup area (where you build ubers and such). A lof of people were involved in every fight and a near full team wipe was needed to switch the owner of the cp.
The capture time on the point seemed really long as well.
As a scout I had 6 healthpacks to work with on this fairly small map and I felt I could just retreat and restock all the time (except when I engaged in these 7v7 all out brawls at the mid.
The map is lacking some oomph, I can't put my finger on it. There is something stale about the gameplay.
yeah I had concerns with the cap time. I'll be reducing it to ~3/4 of its current time or something. I'm not sure if reducing the captime would reduce the staleness you encountered but it surely couldn't hurt. layout wise, I'll be honest, I have no idea what to do with it. I feel like mid could be improved but I don't know.
Hey, we did a 6v6 pug on this last weekend. I had fun on it, but others did not. I think you have a couple of problems that might affect how it plays out in comp settings. (sorry, no demo. We played on a different server, and I don't have access to the ftp)
1) Chokes lead directly onto the point.
If you look at Viaduct, obviously the most sucessful Koth map for comp play (both in 9v9 and 6v6), the choke points are actually separated from the central capture area by quite a bit of distance, almost the equivalent of a yard in a 5cp map. What this means, is that an attacking team can often navigate into a position whereby they can attack the enemy team, without having to worry about getting spammed out of the chokes. If the defending team does want to hold the enemy team at chokes, they have to do so by holding a forward position, which is risky, because it means your med might get picked. Or, if you hold back with med but forward with other classes, you cant adequately cover things, or the classes get picked then the combot is screwed when the enemy team pushes forward and so forth.
With this map, you can sit on or behind the point very easily and still lockout those two main chokes with very little effort. I'm not sure there is a absolute solution to this, bar extending the map signifcantly and adjusting the geometry to have more of a traditional koth map layout. That would take a lot of work and not be as unique as what you have set up here.
2) The cliffside push (the one with the huge hanging wall in front of it) is realy hard to use effectively.
Basically, if you are locked out of the point and you want to push in and attack, the flank cliff is the best option. However, it has a lot of things that really restrict its usefulness. First, the hanging wall that flanks it is pretty weird. On the one hand it prevents fire and line of sight issues (but, this works both ways, so you can't spam the enemy team before you attack), but it also restricts your ability to engage the enemy team when you do want to jump them. Second, the long wall means you have to walk to the very end of it just to get into a position where you can drop onto or near the point, which means anyone looking down that path can see you coming for a long time, and prepare for the attack. Not so good IMO. Third, the hanging wall has about a 8 to 16 unit gap between it and the cliff. What this means is that you cannot shoot to or from the cliff (barring ridiculous sniper body shots), but you can see the enemy's feet as they approach. Basically, you don't have a glass wall there, but the gap makes it so you have the equivalent, meaning you can hold way back, see the enemy long before they are actually in combat with you, and make decisions on how to counter them very easily.
My suggestion is as follows: Take the hanging wall and cut it in two. The back half, you should lower, so that you don't have this feet vision gap from across mid. The forward half, raise (or get rid of) so that people can spam each other as they get into position there. Also, for such a height, I feel like you should extend the cliff a bit so that you can walk or jump onto the cap point from up there. That way, if you walk all the way to the end of the cliff, you don't have to fall down onto water, or the enemy's side of the point, but can actually take the point and some height as you fight people. I think this would greatly affect how combat occurs in this area. Additionally, you might try shrinking the cliff back towards spawn a bit, but then making the two edges of it get very close together (terrible picture)
3) I don't like the upper flank route to cliff
Having some paths that only soldiers/scouts can access is not a bad idea, but with how your map plays out, and the lack of alternative flanks, having a one way path that a med can't follow is pretty lame. I think if you lowered that area, combat would flow a bit better.
4) Need more/easier routes from water up to point
Water is going to be a death trap for many many many players. Especially in highlander, where so many of the classes are severly hampered versus the more mobile ones. I think you need to have some smooth badlands style displacements that lead back up to the area on either side of the point. Make sure you can access either side from either side of the water, so you don't have to run up to the enemy's point because you are in a certain area. Make sure players can choose which side they want to be on when they need to.
5) Water
I know you are aware of the rocket jumping bug, but I'd just like to put in my own assertion that you should probably get rid or minimize the water as much as possible. Its the sort of thing that a lot of players will immediately tell you they like, but that overall really screws with the competitive balance. In 6v6, a soldier can definitely get tons of damage from extreme heights and by bombing in at ridiculous speeds, and there isn't much of a counter to it besides heavy (which most comp players would prefer not to run, unless they really really need to) which means aggro soldiers kill meds with water very very often. Just my two cents, obviously if you want water, go for it, but you will have some very strange scenarios play out that are way outside the norm for competitive play.
6) Clearer distinction between spawn and cave
Yah, its realy hard to figure out what part is safe and what part isn't.
Anyway, I had fun on it. I'll be looking forward to the next versions.
1) Chokes lead directly onto the point.
If you look at Viaduct, obviously the most sucessful Koth map for comp play (both in 9v9 and 6v6), the choke points are actually separated from the central capture area by quite a bit of distance, almost the equivalent of a yard in a 5cp map. What this means, is that an attacking team can often navigate into a position whereby they can attack the enemy team, without having to worry about getting spammed out of the chokes. If the defending team does want to hold the enemy team at chokes, they have to do so by holding a forward position, which is risky, because it means your med might get picked. Or, if you hold back with med but forward with other classes, you cant adequately cover things, or the classes get picked then the combot is screwed when the enemy team pushes forward and so forth.
With this map, you can sit on or behind the point very easily and still lockout those two main chokes with very little effort. I'm not sure there is a absolute solution to this, bar extending the map signifcantly and adjusting the geometry to have more of a traditional koth map layout. That would take a lot of work and not be as unique as what you have set up here.
2) The cliffside push (the one with the huge hanging wall in front of it) is realy hard to use effectively.
Basically, if you are locked out of the point and you want to push in and attack, the flank cliff is the best option. However, it has a lot of things that really restrict its usefulness. First, the hanging wall that flanks it is pretty weird. On the one hand it prevents fire and line of sight issues (but, this works both ways, so you can't spam the enemy team before you attack), but it also restricts your ability to engage the enemy team when you do want to jump them. Second, the long wall means you have to walk to the very end of it just to get into a position where you can drop onto or near the point, which means anyone looking down that path can see you coming for a long time, and prepare for the attack. Not so good IMO. Third, the hanging wall has about a 8 to 16 unit gap between it and the cliff. What this means is that you cannot shoot to or from the cliff (barring ridiculous sniper body shots), but you can see the enemy's feet as they approach. Basically, you don't have a glass wall there, but the gap makes it so you have the equivalent, meaning you can hold way back, see the enemy long before they are actually in combat with you, and make decisions on how to counter them very easily.
My suggestion is as follows: Take the hanging wall and cut it in two. The back half, you should lower, so that you don't have this feet vision gap from across mid. The forward half, raise (or get rid of) so that people can spam each other as they get into position there. Also, for such a height, I feel like you should extend the cliff a bit so that you can walk or jump onto the cap point from up there. That way, if you walk all the way to the end of the cliff, you don't have to fall down onto water, or the enemy's side of the point, but can actually take the point and some height as you fight people. I think this would greatly affect how combat occurs in this area. Additionally, you might try shrinking the cliff back towards spawn a bit, but then making the two edges of it get very close together (terrible picture)
3) I don't like the upper flank route to cliff
Having some paths that only soldiers/scouts can access is not a bad idea, but with how your map plays out, and the lack of alternative flanks, having a one way path that a med can't follow is pretty lame. I think if you lowered that area, combat would flow a bit better.
4) Need more/easier routes from water up to point
Water is going to be a death trap for many many many players. Especially in highlander, where so many of the classes are severly hampered versus the more mobile ones. I think you need to have some smooth badlands style displacements that lead back up to the area on either side of the point. Make sure you can access either side from either side of the water, so you don't have to run up to the enemy's point because you are in a certain area. Make sure players can choose which side they want to be on when they need to.
5) Water
I know you are aware of the rocket jumping bug, but I'd just like to put in my own assertion that you should probably get rid or minimize the water as much as possible. Its the sort of thing that a lot of players will immediately tell you they like, but that overall really screws with the competitive balance. In 6v6, a soldier can definitely get tons of damage from extreme heights and by bombing in at ridiculous speeds, and there isn't much of a counter to it besides heavy (which most comp players would prefer not to run, unless they really really need to) which means aggro soldiers kill meds with water very very often. Just my two cents, obviously if you want water, go for it, but you will have some very strange scenarios play out that are way outside the norm for competitive play.
6) Clearer distinction between spawn and cave
Yah, its realy hard to figure out what part is safe and what part isn't.
Anyway, I had fun on it. I'll be looking forward to the next versions.
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STV from yesterday's HL
I dunno if I like a2 less than a1, or playing it in Highlander made it less fun, but I didn't enjoy it as much this time.
Occult is a lot like Nucleus to me, because it's huge, circular, open, and has a lot of vertical gameplay. The thing is that it doesn't really play like Nucleus though. Occult is more of a series of layered one-way corkscrews, so teams aren't meeting in the middle and edges of the map like they would on Nucleus when avoiding the more open center area. There's only two ways onto the point and there's no cover, as well. Then again, you can drop down without taking fall damage, but then you're kinda fucked for a way up because even if you try to get up on your side of the point or your side of the larger cave area thing, the enemy team still has a ridiculously easy vantage over you.
We felt the best thing to do was rush the point, control the entrances, and then try to control the other team's spawn area. That seemed to be what worked best most the time.
I also play Heavy in Highlander, though, whereas if I was playing this in a pub I would definitely go Soldier or Demo. I guess I don't see this map as being much fun for non jumpers.
I dunno if I like a2 less than a1, or playing it in Highlander made it less fun, but I didn't enjoy it as much this time.
Occult is a lot like Nucleus to me, because it's huge, circular, open, and has a lot of vertical gameplay. The thing is that it doesn't really play like Nucleus though. Occult is more of a series of layered one-way corkscrews, so teams aren't meeting in the middle and edges of the map like they would on Nucleus when avoiding the more open center area. There's only two ways onto the point and there's no cover, as well. Then again, you can drop down without taking fall damage, but then you're kinda fucked for a way up because even if you try to get up on your side of the point or your side of the larger cave area thing, the enemy team still has a ridiculously easy vantage over you.
We felt the best thing to do was rush the point, control the entrances, and then try to control the other team's spawn area. That seemed to be what worked best most the time.
I also play Heavy in Highlander, though, whereas if I was playing this in a pub I would definitely go Soldier or Demo. I guess I don't see this map as being much fun for non jumpers.
Melvin D Engineere
L4: Comfortable Member
- Feb 25, 2012
- 173
- 192
Is the bugfix for this fixing the koth point not capping?