Muse

DJive

Cake or Death?
aa
Dec 20, 2007
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OK So the killing the server sucks x2.

This version removed what I think was the issue as well as added more signs and more clipping.

X-fingers


-SNIP-

still crashes, will fix more =((

edit:

Issue narrowed down to a problem in the intel area. I'm able to go around the map everywhere without trouble but the second the intel area is drawn the server kicks you and HL2.exe crys. At least i have it narrowed down, will remake room.
 
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Ælement

I'm so happy :D
aa
Dec 21, 2010
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tumblr_lkfb1eKj731qadird.gif
 

DJive

Cake or Death?
aa
Dec 20, 2007
1,465
741
OK so from the testing tonight comments tonight many people mentioned "too big, huge!". Please mind being Alpha a lot hasn't been filled in such as displacements and detail that'll cut down on the width of a lot of places. I based the map roughly off other CTF maps, here is 2FORT

2Fort:
Total Size = 6224x9472
Intel to Intel = 6742.1
Bridge 310x899
Outside area 1024x448
Muse:
Total Size = 4384x8832
Intel to Intel = 7061
Bridge 294x1296
Outside area 1096x960

:: So it seems that Muse is a Smaller map however the center of the map is bigger by a lot. Is this what people are saying is "Huge map" ?

Looking forward to more testing and thanks!
 

tyler

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Sep 11, 2013
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Your units might be in line, but the act of moving from one place to another is a winding, lengthy mess. Height differences are larger than they should be and there is just a lot of unnecessary space. In many places, there seem to be multiple sets of long, winding corridors similar to games like Quake or UT, which just don't work in a slower game like TF2.

That, and the bridge is enormous and also effectively a single route.

Don't measure in units, measure in travel time. Don't make hallways, make arenas.
 
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DJive

Cake or Death?
aa
Dec 20, 2007
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Mind my replies guys, I'm not against feedback, Attempting to understand and I do appreciate all the feedback!

Don't measure in units, measure in travel time.

2fort:
courtyard lower 34.9
courtyard top (bridge top) 31.9
spriral ramp 35.0

Muse:
right 33.5map
left 32.4
bottom 32.9

Size and time are very comparable. Perhaps it "feels" big? Once you've traveled around the map to me it actually feels small =(

That, and the bridge is enormous and also effectively a single route.

I agree. The bridge was an after thought and needs to be looked at. I agree it is far to big. How do you mean a single route though as you can go under as well without disruption from the top?


In many places, there seem to be multiple sets of long, winding corridors.

Which ones?

Height differences are larger than they should be and there is just a lot of unnecessary space.

The space thing will be set with detail/props/displacements. The Height thing I'm more so confused by as there isn't many spots where height comes to play and even so more less then "any" other map I've ever played. Perhaps I'm not thinking correctly on the meaning.
 

tyler

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Sep 11, 2013
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Okay, so the bridge actually is two routes, and they feel really disconnected. When I was on the lower level, I didn't really know how to get to the top. Now that I have flown through it I do, but I had to see the route from a different angle because in game nothing would connect together for me. As someone who understood Steel the first time, that's not great.

Part of the problem is sheer length. I dunno if I believe that 2fort is the same timewise, but maybe you just know your own map better than I do. Even if it is the same, I'd go back and time it against Doublecross or something--a more modern CTF map that I personally see a lot more people enjoy. Run through it as Soldier and time it without rocket jumping. Run intel to intel on your map as Heavy without the GRU.

vxZNG.jpg


This is a good example of a route that is just immensely long. Eye candy like props and displacements aren't going to help me here.

This element of pure length and width is repeated all over the map.

aLzP9.jpg


Not only is this room massive for no real reason, it's got some excessive height variation, both in scale and just for what it is: a room I never encountered anyone in.

JNSUA.jpg


Height variation is good, but not when you've got 6 different levels within about a 320u radius. The map would probably feel less huge if these insane heights were cut down. It seems like you're working at 64, 128 or 192 a lot for stairs. I would tone it down to much, much smaller stairs--16, 32, 64, 128 at the largest.

aWpaV.jpg


Looking at this, I know it's close to 256 from the dev textures. That's insane! A TF2 player is a little less than 90 units tall, meaning these stairs are almost 3 times the player's height.

IaY8V.jpg


And these stairs are all over (pictured here again, in a long, long hallway).

As for the bridge:

WusIC.jpg


Not hard to cover the whole thing with a couple good engineers and a sniper.

A lot of your layout feels like you are trying to wrap things around corners or move hallways into hairpin turns for optimization purposes. That's good obviously, but if that's the case it is stretching your map out and making it feel more roundabout and large than it may actually be. Were I you, I'd cut about half of the vertical scale and then work on considerably shrinking the amount and length of routes.
 

DJive

Cake or Death?
aa
Dec 20, 2007
1,465
741
THAT is some awesome feedback Yyler, thank you =) I'll look at all those issues and do see what you mean now.

edit: also jealous on how vibrant your colors are =(

-Screenshot 1-
I agree

-Screenshot 2-
That room is the quickest/safest route side-to-side and the most amount of coverage. I was thinking that as more a defense route for engies as using that route as a flag cap is very-very efficient. Scale wise I do agree it is very large.

-Screenshot 3-
I certainly am a grid person. Most are tied to UNIT 8 however, but I do see what you mean by that area. What i was intending to do is instead of having one LONG way down, I wanted to break it up for the player so it didn't feel so long. I think i created the opposite affect

-Screenshot 4-
Many stairs in TF2 are at/above player height, I'm not sure what is bad about this. Is it the width that makes it feel huge?

-Screenshot 5-
Kinda rolls into screenshot 4, this area looks like it may need rework.

-Screenshot 6-
LoS is forever my enemy.
 
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tyler

aa
Sep 11, 2013
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Well, regarding stairs, I should perhaps be more clear. While it's true that you often find huge stairs, they quite often have landings or wind around something.

2oKxo.jpg


In this Badwater shot, yeah, the stairs are tall. There are two sets that go about 320u up. But they are split into two 160u tall pieces.

ugpCj.jpg


This is something like 192 or 256 up, but it's cut and turns and alleviates the feeling of just running up a huge staircase.

5lHy1.jpg


In this are two landings and a little turn to alleviate the bad feelings one gets when looking at a super long staircase. There are actually four (!) levels of height variation here but due to the turn it's not so bad.

What you've got in Muse are multiple large staircases (both in width and height) that are rarely broken into multiple pieces. When they are, it's like the screenshot with numbered height levels--at that point, you've got so much going on, it feels just as bad.

Make sense?
 
Mar 23, 2010
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this map feels like quakefortress2, but i'm not sure why really. i feel like the main problem is that it's too long (spawn to spawn)? MAP CONFUSES ME

also you should try making this csf maybe as a funsies experiment

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/540674665888453772/C1603314CAC6892CAFAF33909DF3F4FBE7C5BE96/ a prime first "A" intel location maybe (right where my crosshair is)
somewhere in
0E25D1CFF1FB77E51D38E7F037A5396A172B9D11
being the "B" intel
and C in the same place i guess; personally think it should be a tad closer to the ledge

this map perplexes me
 
Mar 23, 2010
1,875
1,700
i should have mentioned the csf path is a path of pain and misery and sleepless nights spent crying over broken dreams

BUT IT COULD BE COOL, COULD BE FUN, RIGHT???