Morras Castle

[Sergis]

Coming up: CTF HUD recruited to help me in my fight against the confusiveness. A neutral intel will point to the currently active CP.

This should
- eliminate the confusion caused by semirandom CP system and "we're at B, why it's locked?" situations
- eliminate the "where do i go?" situations
- by having the players go exactly where they're supposed to go, up the player saturation on points and therefore eliminate the feeling of overscaledness.

 

[NinjillaX]

I dont know how many of these have been talked about, but I played and have some comments...

The spawn for Blue on Stage 2, it starts you looking toward D, when you should be capping E first. This leads to confusion as to where the team should be going.

This is what meets players if they travel to the right out of spawn towards E, this narrow little path. Why is that?

Everyone should be able to get here easily, make ramps or something if you dont want to change the stairs blocking the pathway.

Block this off further, its hard to tell it was from the past stage and players may try and head here as a retreat.

Lastly, why is the progression of points E > D > F?

 

[Sergis]

The map seemed to play quite well...for 2v3. I noticed just one "I'm lost" comment, but that player found the point 1 second after saying that. So far it seems that the intel is doing it's job, although a more populated test is needed to be sure.
I got some comments that the intel is visible in the map, which shouldn't be happening since it's sealed away under the map in nodraw boxes and I didn't saw it myself. Weird.

I dont know how many of these have been talked about, but I played and have some comments...

The spawn for Blue on Stage 2, it starts you looking toward D, when you should be capping E first. This leads to confusion as to where the team should be going.

I'll look into it. I don't want the spawn to face castle because the defenders might fire right into it then.

This is what meets players if they travel to the right out of spawn towards E, this narrow little path. Why is that?

Because I compressed C and kinda just crammed the smithy in there. I could widen that path a bit.

Everyone should be able to get here easily, make ramps or something if you dont want to change the stairs blocking the pathway.

I like it being a little skilljump. Those who can't get there can just run around or get to resupply.

Block this off further, its hard to tell it was from the past stage and players may try and head here as a retreat.

I don't want to put blocking stuff over water. I'll see if the players actually go there first.

Lastly, why is the progression of points E > D > F?

Because it's either EDF or DEF. It used to be Gravelpit style, but the map being big and unobvious + underpopulated tests + teams being split left a bad impression about the maps' size. I wanted the map to have Gravelpits variability, I didn't wanted to redo the layout because I've done it too much times already and I didn't wanted the teams to split. So this semirandom layout is the solution I came up with.

 

[NinjillaX]

You could switch the control points from E and D around in name only, no need to re-do the layout. I would think people would be confused as to why they're capping E before D, I certainly was. As for spawn, you could put it a little further back and facing straight, with LARGE signs that point to E and D, and that F is forward. I had to kind of work my way around till I saw I was going the wrong way because thats where spawn was facing. Lastly, the intel shows because it had an outline like a payload cart.

 

[LeSwordfish]

You could switch the control points from E and D around in name only, no need to re-do the layout. I would think people would be confused as to why they're capping E before D, I certainly was.

It's random; as likely to be one as the other.

 

[tyler]

Ever think you're trying to make a bad layout work? Don't want to sound like an asshole, but I don't think the map is overscaled because of the few players but rather because it feels overscaled. And semi-maze like. And the random sequence will never not be confusing.

Sometimes you have to give up. Rebuild the layout and use dev textures so starting over isn't such a big deal. Double gpit is a sweet idea, but the points and areas and walk times are too massive, hard to attack, hard to defend, or just crazy. You've got a great theme and idea, but a lot of your areas are just way too tall.

I know you want to save the map without rebuilding, but I don't think you can. I think that's the lesson of some maps, and you just have to accept why they don't work and think about the reason or reasons in your next design, whether it be a redux of this or a new map entirely.

 

[NinjillaX]

I agree with yyler here :/

 

[Dragonstorm24]

Ever think you're trying to make a bad layout work? Don't want to sound like an asshole, but I don't think the map is overscaled because of the few players but rather because it feels overscaled. And semi-maze like. And the random sequence will never not be confusing.

Sometimes you have to give up. Rebuild the layout and use dev textures so starting over isn't such a big deal. Double gpit is a sweet idea, but the points and areas and walk times are too massive, hard to attack, hard to defend, or just crazy. You've got a great theme and idea, but a lot of your areas are just way too tall.

I know you want to save the map without rebuilding, but I don't think you can. I think that's the lesson of some maps, and you just have to accept why they don't work and think about the reason or reasons in your next design, whether it be a redux of this or a new map entirely.

It's all about trial and error, some ideas work and some you have to scrap entirely. A good idea would also be to just divide it up into sections (like spawns and cp points) and work on those small pieces and detail those then lay them out on a predetermined map setup that has been tested with dev textures. This makes it so that if most of it fails you can save the detailed parts and use them later.

 

[Sergis]

You could switch the control points from E and D around in name only, no need to re-do the layout. I would think people would be confused as to why they're capping E before D, I certainly was. As for spawn, you could put it a little further back and facing straight, with LARGE signs that point to E and D, and that F is forward. I had to kind of work my way around till I saw I was going the wrong way because thats where spawn was facing. Lastly, the intel shows because it had an outline like a payload cart.

Playing on DX8 made me completely forget about the outline. Hopefully it won't show when I set the intel model to none.

Ever think you're trying to make a bad layout work? Don't want to sound like an asshole, but I don't think the map is overscaled because of the few players but rather because it feels overscaled. And semi-maze like. And the random sequence will never not be confusing.

Sometimes you have to give up. Rebuild the layout and use dev textures so starting over isn't such a big deal. Double gpit is a sweet idea, but the points and areas and walk times are too massive, hard to attack, hard to defend, or just crazy. You've got a great theme and idea, but a lot of your areas are just way too tall.

I know you want to save the map without rebuilding, but I don't think you can. I think that's the lesson of some maps, and you just have to accept why they don't work and think about the reason or reasons in your next design, whether it be a redux of this or a new map entirely.

I'd agree with you if the map hadn't played well before, but it has and that's why I won't give up. Somehow it has become more confusing as I downsized it and I can't figure out how. The layout is pretty much the same as it always was, yet it seems to be more confusing than it was in the first few versions when I didn't even had stage barriers and you could run all the way back into stage 1 area while playing stage 2.

Also I've been making this map for so long that if I restart it again, I'll probably never finish it, therefore I have to make the current layout work. The map is fun when the players know where to go, as playing with bots has shown, I just have to make it more clear for humans.

 

[Tyker]

I really don't like the ammo and food on top of large models. It is too much of a hassle to get them. You cannot even reach the ammo with a crouch jump.

This UV needs to be fixed along the wood.

What is that wooden box for at the right?

Clip this off, I went up and down while running along it.

Really absurd health and ammo placement here.

Alt+Right click. Best way to fix this.

More bad UVs, but apart from that I also think you can make this look better with more straight rocks.

Apart from that I got lost a lot of times. Fighting was a bit erratic, but you dont seem to want to change that. Detailing is fine though, although some brushwork could be better (walls, throne, stairs, some roofs).

 

[Sergis]

I think I'm going to make the cap layout simply linear ABC and DEF. I don't want to have Gravelpit-like team splitting and it looks like the semirandom idea isn't liked, so I'm making the map double Artpass style.

Also I'll remove the resupply lockers by cap points. They aren't as useful as intended and all they really do is add to confusion.

 

[Doctor Paprika]

Ever think you're trying to make a bad layout work? Don't want to sound like an asshole, but I don't think the map is overscaled because of the few players but rather because it feels overscaled. And semi-maze like. And the random sequence will never not be confusing.

Sometimes you have to give up. Rebuild the layout and use dev textures so starting over isn't such a big deal. Double gpit is a sweet idea, but the points and areas and walk times are too massive, hard to attack, hard to defend, or just crazy. You've got a great theme and idea, but a lot of your areas are just way too tall.

I know you want to save the map without rebuilding, but I don't think you can. I think that's the lesson of some maps, and you just have to accept why they don't work and think about the reason or reasons in your next design, whether it be a redux of this or a new map entirely.

This pretty much covers my feelings after a 5v5. It's almost as confusing as trying to work your way through a real medieval castle.

If I were doing this, I would (a) keep the themes you have going (especially the final cap being a throne room with spawn above), and (b) simplify the design so it's easier to know which areas you're supposed to be in at any given time.

It almost might not hurt to go for Medieval Mode in a rebuild. Half the players thought they were only supposed to be using melee.

 

[Sergis]

I'm definitely not making this into medieval mode. There's just too much work put in the map just to switch it to gametype thats only fun for 15 minutes.

I don't consider the layout "bad". It's just not a "hold W 10 seconds to get into fight" kind of layout that TF2 players seem to be used to. Sure, you might run off in a wrong direction when you first play the map, but once the layout is learned or you realize that the ctf pointer is there for a reason and following it is a good idea, it shouldn't be a problem. Since this is my first released TF2 map, I've been working on it for way too long and it has been rebuilt a few times already, I'd rather not do any big changes anymore.

Besides, I have no idea wtf am I supposed to do for players who switch to melee even though ranged weapons are clearly allowed, chill by a locked control point as defenders watching a melee fight, or run thru a doorway that has a big E sign by it when there is a similar doorway with a D sign in the room and hud shows point E being locked and D unlocked. All of that happened in the 5v5 and dumbing the map down enough to make sure those situations don't happen is more dumbing down than I am willing to do.

I think I'll just finish the map with the layout I have now and hope my other maps will turn out more straightforward.

Anyway, beta 3 ready.

 

[Sergis]

beta 3 submitted for gameday. depending on how it goes, I might consider a rebuild to make the map even more linear after all.

 

[Sergis]

I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT AND IT SPOKE UPON ME and it told me to restart the map as a dustbowl style A/D. AND I SAID, "SO BE IT"

 

[Sergis]

a25 ready.
all 3 stages of new layout (with old points) are now in the map.

 

[Sergis]

a32 is ready.
Most important changes:
Clipped the back of A. Players kept running there searching for the next CP and due to players not being at B, B was playing crappy.
Made alternative path in 2nd stage more obvious. In a31 test, almost nobody went there, making the stage play badly and making players think that the main path is the only path.
Improved signage in F courtyard, making it easier to find your way to E.

 

[Sergis]

Thoughts about last test:

Point A was defended, then steamrolled. I blame the teams. A bit too much of the fighting was between the castle and spawn exits, so I should make exiting the spawn easier. The full healthkit was helping defenders more than attackers, so I'll consider removing it if it keeps doing that.

Point B was 6v4+1afk, with the 6 players just having rolled A, so here i blame the teams only

Point C had some nice fighting on it, however after capping point the blu team ran off the wrong way and also was distracted for a long time by 2 red players. I'll remove health inside the castle at C so that after it's capped, red has no resources there. Also I think I should make some of the area in front of the castle exit red-only area so that blu picks up the correct direction faster. If that won't be enough, I might move the cap inside the house so that correct path will be clearly visible from the point. The wooden support props in the upper attacker path were a bit too nice for the hiding scout there, I'll replace them with chickenwire. Chickenwire fixes everything.

Point D had blu team distracted and red pushing forward. Blu got behind the extending red a few times so I think after fixing C, D should become better as well. I should make the cave sidepath more viable tho.

Point E... i dunno. The blu team came in, killed everyone, and capped it. I'll see if it happens again before doing anything. I do know that with the point tightened up, I don't want the roof to be accessible.

Point F was way too hard, stopping a team that just rolled E for 10 minutes. I think that 10 minutes of playing it was the main reason some players left when a minute was left. That wouldn't happen if E was defended at least for a while tho so I'll see if E gets overrun again before doing anything about it. Most of the time, the blu team couldn't press red good enough. I believe that was happening because red has 2 healthkits and a spawnroom nearby, while blu only has health in the second floor that takes time to get to. I saw blu running around courtyard looking for health more often than i'd want it to happen. I'll make another path up to health in the middle tower. Also I'll lower sidepaths into throne room so that more classes can get there from below, it doesn't provide strong high ground against the tower exit there, and engies could put tele there to make it crouchjumpable (a trick I liked very much in one of the earlier versions of advection). I'll also add small health so attackers can stay there instead of being forced to drop down and run away in search for health.

 

[Sergis]

It appears to me that TF2M is just sick of the map. Almost every test I lose quite a few people on mapchange and they often keep bleeding away, while sticking through maps noticeably worse. It's like there's a stigma to the map being bad and I obviously won't fix it if players come in it pre-convinced of it being bad. Therefore I will not test it on TF2M anymore. It's no use trying to fix things and test them here when I get told in chat that map is bad an hour before it is even played.

 

[soylent robot]

It appears to me that TF2M is just sick of the map. Almost every test I lose quite a few people on mapchange and they often keep bleeding away, while sticking through maps noticeably worse. It's like there's a stigma to the map being bad and I obviously won't fix it if players come in it pre-convinced of it being bad. Therefore I will not test it on TF2M anymore. It's no use trying to fix things and test them here when I get told in chat that map is bad an hour before it is even played.

have you considered the fact that the map might actually deserve this reputation?