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[Judge Vote] supersandviches article thread

Discussion in 'Contests' started by owly-oop, May 27, 2010.

  1. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Positive Ratings:
    Don't know if these kind of threads are necessary but it would help me make my articles better since i don't think i'm any good at writing. So here i will start


    Gameplay - 2.5
    Class Involvement - 3.5

    This map is a fantastically-detailed-fun-map-to-play-in-public-servers. The middle is fun, although i can't help but think it's badlands middle with the bridge rotated 90 degrees. Still fun nonetheless. I have no complaints to the middle. Generally healthkits are a bad idea to place in the middle due to scouts escaping with the intel, getting their health back, and then running away for an inevitable capture. This could be solved with touch-return or a short return timer.

    •The flag return time is too long
    When a flag gets out of the base it is an inevitable capture. Dedicating a defense to the dropped flag will most likely be a wasted effort. A DR spy our a speedy scout can easily pick up the flag and die a second later resetting the long timer.

    That problem is easily shadowed because getting the intel in the first place is too hard.

    Let's see the intel room.

    The paths in/out of the intel room are clearly divided into 2 sections. The smaller one (2) is quicker and only has 1 deathtrap of a path to get inside. Getting out is the quicker route. With the locations of both team's bases, it creates a circle that doesn't let either side see eachother

    Now, this really only applies for both scouts. Taking the longer route is a dominant place to defend from for the soldiers because of the sniper battlements being raised. And the longer path is where the attackers will main their attacks

    Time to break down each attacking route

    D - D for deathtrap

    If someone manages to get through this path it means either - the defenders suck/were an inferior class, or no one was watching it

    The supply for this path is superior, but it's placement isn't. The red boxes mark the walls that just absorb splash damage. A rather narrow path means that you're going to constantly eat spam and no way to dodge it. The HP is places in that tiny corridor, so if you move forward to get it, the smart defender would move up and be almost right above you. You're dead meat.

    To make it even worse, you HAVE to pass their spawn before you get the intel!

    This applies for half of path C. But path C (now to be referred as the vents) is also not a very good place to attack from because it's so narrower there is NO way to dodge spam. And once you jump in you can't run back since it's a dropdown. Unless if you're a fanscout/demo/soldier.

    Path A and B

    They could be counted as one path, or i could just not even include path B. Let's take a look

    So, such a big area funneled down to 1 doorway to the intel. The only reliable supplies are the low set. Both teams are at the same level so it's whoever can spam better and who has the better uber. But the battlements ensure the defenders won't push out because getting past the spam + the height advantage will be too much.

    Getting the bigger supplies. It's not very reliable because you have to be seen three times in a line of sight (red lines, plus the actually hallway that is path B). Any competent soldier could easily shoot a rocket ahead damaging you even more/death. Once you get the health you have 2 options:

    Run back getting seen two more times in the line of sight. Or psuh up into the intel with a slight disadvantage. The slight dropdown eats splash damage and makes it harder to hit things with rockets if you're down there.


    These windows should be closed or with glass. It doesn't look like you should be able to shoot through it, and the crosses in the middle just make shooting through it annoying. It also creates a long sightline for a clever way to spawncamp.

    Should i be able to build up here? Looks like a nasty ninja sentry spot

    Same in here

    I get some sort of rubberband effect while colliding with these props
    An FPS problem

    I noticed while in the intel room i got lower FPS than i should based on what i could see. I think one culprit is this tiny aesthetic window.

    Holding W for a little bit

    So this means i'm rendering the outside because of that tiny little hole, since both windows are transparent

    Wireframe from inside the intel room

    Middle is fun to fight on, but the intel is way too hard to get. Only thing an offensive scout is to patrol the middle so no one pushes out.
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    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  2. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Positive Ratings:

    Gameplay - 5
    Class Involvement - 5.5

    From what i played of this map, i had fun at everything but the mid fights. Amateur detailing but that doesn't bother me too much. Doesn't disturb the environment

    The first thing i noticed was this massive sightline in which the fog goes to a solid colour before the sightline breaks. This is right outside of spawn

    While in the same position i held W. Yes, this sightline ends up inside THE OPPOSING TEAM'S HOUSE

    So what this means is....

    Another thing, this rockwall isn't playerclipped so it lets me stand right here and spam into the enemy's spawn
    Anywho, now to the map layout.

    The Mid Fight

    So seeing how this plays and the layout, the middle seems to be divided into 2 sections. Marked with greay and green outline.

    While not distantly and visibly isolated, it plays like 2 separate sections until 1 guy decides to look down. In that case then the top is completely dominate as the height variation just eats up splash damage

    If you choose the bottom section, it is too hard to get back up. The grey line that goes up the ramp leads into the tiny closet which is a deathtrap. The walls eat splash damage and the enemies see you going up the ramp before you get to the closet.

    Transitioning from the top section to the bottom with the ramps leads to you being noticed and the height variation gets you spammed easily from above. As seen by the green arrow going down.

    Now, the actual fighting. It's uninteresting. While the mid has height variation the fighting always seems to be on flat land. The usual fighting occurs at the blue line and the grey dotted line.

    Following the blue line of fighting

    So once the mid fight is over the defending team usually doesn't get wiped. So then here comes where the attackers must make their move to get the intel

    So here's the layout.

    Path 1 is the main entrance and the most important. The building structure draws your attention to it which is good for it's value. Path 2 seems to be a random sidepath that is only good if no one is watching it. Path 3 is a no-go if the attackers don't control the house

    This can lead to stalemates if the attackers don't get the house because it has only 1 doorway into it from mid.

    Path 3

    You go into a sewer-like tunnel which eats splash damage, and then once you get through the defenders have the height advantage and the supplies. This path is good for jumping classes if the attackers don't own the house

    Once the attackers own the house this path becomes a great route because support is avaible from uptop to counterspam the defenders. The placement of the supplies allows for a quick escape while running over them

    Path 2 seems to be useless. it's a narrow hallway with a room and a low ceiling. Even though it gives the attacker the higher ground, the low ceiling allows for a huge blanket for splash damage incoming from defenders.

    Pushing Out

    Once the attackers push out it becomes chaotic in a good way. But there's always once spot someone is in that is really effective. Marked by the green circle

    This spot gives the higher ground and watches all paths. Nasty sentry spot too.

    Last but not least, the distance between the intel and spawn is great!

    Conclusion - Intel is easy to get when you push (good), middle isn't fun to fight on. It needs cover and things to break lines of sight, look at badlands and it's trains.
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    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  3. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Positive Ratings:

    Gameplay - 3
    Class Involvement - 3.5

    I love the look of the bases, very nice job detailing it!

    Biggest problem first. There aren't enough caps and it just seems to stalemate with useless fighting

    Let's take a look at the intel room and paths to push into it. Path A seems to be the most effective as it gives a major verticle attack point. Path B and C go onto a walkway that overlooks the intel room, path D is the path people defending will come from to go up, and path E seems to be the deathtrap.

    It looks reasonable... until you take into consideration that the spawns are too close.
    Path C and D are rendered useless/less effective because you have the chance of defenderings spawning behind you.

    Path A is right next to a spawndoor

    I will say though not many people use that spawndoor, so it's okay now. But in a competitive environment, people will know the maps perfectly and will use it to their advantage. This lack of knowledge will only be temporary.

    And last, there is a nasty sentry spot. It watches every path except A and cannot be outranged. It looks like the sentry shouldn't be there since it's floating, but you can build on it.

    Attacking the bases

    I've always found attacking the bases a bit chokey. The safest route to the intel is the longest, but personally i think it's too long since you have to make a big circle around the base to get to it (unless if you are a jumping class or if the vents aren't being spammed)

    The main door entrance provides a disadvantage possibly at 2 walkways, but it's usually only 1. Death for medics

    The 2nd entrance being the vents, it's only good if you coordinate an attack and go through it if the defenders are distracted. Otherwise it's extremely narrow and that means it eats splash damage like a hungry hungry hippow.

    The 3rd path that goes through the house is obviously the best choice. It has medium supplies and leads up to an equal height that of the defenders. I feel it's a bit chokey though since the fighting happens in a hallway.

    The walktime for it is a bit too long, and the safest route is way too long.

    You have a choice of either the defenders spawning behind you, or doing a big loop around the base to get to the best position. This becomes void (HEH) once it's safe to go in the vents.

    Outside the base feels like a no man's land and generally not fun to fight on. The grey circled area is an area that no one ever feels safe due to a lack of cover, and every path crosses this area

    The mid fight is misleading -

    The bridge is the most valuable structure to control at the start, but you have a choice of 2 indirect paths to get up there. The main path leads to under the bridge. It doesn't matter which group of teammates control that area because it's the most useless but also the most direct path.

    Conclusion - The distribution of paths and it's qualities (height, supply, distance) feels a bit too extreme, and the intel is too hard to get. Low number of caps in each game i play
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    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  4. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Positive Ratings:

    Gameplay 5
    Class Involvement 5.5

    This map is pretty solid and fun. Clearly seperation between the mid, yard, and bases.

    One thing that bugs me to no end are these window. It doesn't look like you could shoot through them.

    The distance between the intel and the spawn in great! Only concern is since the spawn seems downhill from the intel, spawncamping might
    be a problem after a team push.

    Noticably long sightlines in a few places, the fog almost turns a solid color before the sightline is broken

    The mid has good flow. Since the paths are diagonal to eachother it makes the fighting not linear like the general geometry. I think the overall map is kind of flat though

    Overall a pretty good map, little complaints. Definitely will be in the top half

    The yard is my least favourite part of the map to fight on, and it's where most of it occurs. It's pretty wide, very flat, and little things to block lines of sights. So you could see an enemy on the over side of the yard but can't do much damage to him.

    The intel room isn't easily campable which is good, and the strongest places to defend it are not inside it, which is also good. The placement of the supplies lets attackers use it, but also engies if they dare leave the intel room to go and get it.
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    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  5. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Positive Ratings:

    Gameplay 5.5
    Class Involvement 6

    I enjoyed almost every second when i play this map. Definitely one of the higher scoring maps. When i wasn't enjoying myself/least enjoyment it was at the middle

    Looking back, the middle feels massive. The distance between the bases seem fine but the width is really long. It's less apparently when you're on top of the brudge but once i jump down to get the health it becomes obvious. Because of the widht of the map it feels a bit too scout friendly

    The pathways to the capture area are great. Equal in distance, size, and supplies. Only 1 path i think could use a change is this one.

    However, even though the paths are equal theyre kinda chokey. The bases in general. It's too hard to catch a scout who enters your base in a different entrance than what you're near

    Since the spawn is that dropdown 2 things will happen if people are using that path. Either the attacks can spawncamp/trap them in their spawn, Or the recently spawned defender can jump down and be behind the attackers. Both cause frustration

    Another thing that got on my nerves and has caused the enemy capturing are these railings.

    The red arrow is the path the defender runs when attacking a guy in mid air. Dotted red lines are the line of firing. The blue trail is the scout about to capture.

    Generally any skilled person can line up a shot with a guy moving in mid air since his movement is predictable and linear. But i noticed i and many others bump into those railings and messes up our lined shot. Since the defender is looking up they don't see the railing

    That's all i have. The better maps have shorter reviews because there's less to complain about :p
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    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  6. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Positive Ratings:

    Gameplay 3
    Class Involvement 5

    The middle of this map is the worst part. It's 4 catwalks with the whole lower area as a deathtrap. This map is a hell to medics and a heaven to soldiers

    Really the reason why is pretty obvious. Extreme height differences so whoever is uptop wins. The supplies are low so nothing much is lost while being uptop. Even then the supplies at middle are next to the ramps that lead up to the top so there's little risk getting them. The walk distances are pretty much the same compared to the top and bottom. There's no reason not to go uptop.

    The middle aside, the rest of the map is pretty fun. A significant amount of fighting happened at middle though, when really 2 organized teams fighting should happen inbetween the cap and mid.

    Organizing a team is the hard part. Attacking routes to the intel is 2 isolated main routes each having 2 subroutes with them. L stands for lower, H stands for higher

    With this general formula it could work. The 1st H (reading from left to right) could defend both Ls. But then that would be even another reason to only go the higher routes

    But when you add in the isolation between the 2 main routes, it becomes too hard to defend from scouts running the intel. It then becomes a game of cat and mouse.

    The lack of team pushes for the intel really makes the gameplay not fun. But sometimes there might be a few, and when it does spawncamping becomes a problem for various time lengths depending on the attacker's effort to do so

    The spawns are very close to the intel. Having 2 separated spawnrooms does not give spawning people options, and therefore predictable options for the attackers

    The spawnroom to the left has a somewhat low ceiling so you can't even be juggled. The spawnroom to the right has a window infront of the door so choosing which direction cannot be a surprise.

    I noticed in the map that the map was actually flat. it's either fighting on flat ground or looking straightup or straightdown combat. There's not anywhere in between except the intel, but fighting doesn't happen there much.

    Healthkit and ammo placement is great though, and the paths to the intel. Distances match up with the amount of supplies which is great
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    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  7. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Positive Ratings:

    Gameplay 7
    Class Involvement 7

    This map is my favorite right next to wildfire, but because of these ratings i can't show in my ratings that i like a map slightly better than another

    Every time i pug this map i have fun. The middle is fun to fight on, the supply placement is great, the cap zones are defendable but not too defendable, and i get good fps on this map.

    I can't really write much about this map. This map proves that invade ctf can (and does) work in tf2. I only have a few nitpicks though.

    The biggest (but still small) - When there's a standoff where one team owns mid and the other is defending, i feel there could be more room for important picks. There's only one good sniper sightline which is sitting infront of your spawndoor and watching the large dropoff towards the cap, but the attackers will only be there when they are in the process of pushing. But i guess the lack of sniper sightlines is a good thing, so class involvement still gets a 7.

    Other nitpicks

    Move this metal down because it's awkward trying to kill someone between the cracks, and i don't feel safe behind it when a soldier can cause splash damage under it

    The red box is the wired fence, i feel it's a bit too hard to notice it's there.

    I've gotten stuck in this displacement. It also needs some ground there

    These aren't so obvious that you can get on these roofs but i'm sure when people learn the map it won't be a problem

    I think you should make the heights of these even because one being lowered can let a rocket get to you, so it doesn't really feel like safe cover

    I think you should make these go all the way down as said in a previous nitpick
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    Last edited: Jun 4, 2010
  8. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Positive Ratings:

    Gameplay 4
    Class Involvement 6

    Playing this map while defending feels frustrating if the intel escapes the base because of the not-short-enough return time and catching the pesky critter that gets the intel. Becuase of the health at middle you could injure a scout but then gets his health back because of it

    Attacking in this map feels a bit teethgrinding because there's only 1 worthy path

    Let's take a look at the flow of the map. This shows the quickest route to the intels, which are also the best routes.

    So the quickest and best routes for both teams never intersect eachother.
    Path 1 is the worst because

    -It goes directly infront of the enemy spawn
    -It's the longest
    -The supplies are pretty far back, you have to retreat pretty far from the intel to get them

    Path 2 feels like a deathtrap. It doesn't offer any height advantage, the defenders have it. You either fight on the lower of equal ground. You also have to get close to open the doors so eating splash damage is easy.

    Narrowing the useful paths to one is never a good idea

    Thankfully path 3 isn't better in every aspect. It has alot of places a sniper can sit to headshot you while you attack

    In the intel area i feel this corner is a deathtrap because it's not very useful at all and the attackers using the pipe easily eat you OM NOM NOM

    As for the map, the theme you chose doesn't allow much freedom to your layout so the middle feels kind of boring. But what you did with the pipe makes the intel area interesting so i'll give you that. Middle is fun to fight on but i bet the edges of the mid building are hell to medics because of it's narrowness. But i noticed that there are lots of places for cover for medics so that's good
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    Last edited: Jun 2, 2010
  9. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Positive Ratings:

    Gameplay 6
    Class Involvement 6

    This map is really fun. It better get in the top 5 atleast.

    The bases are well designed. It's kind of split into two, one half with the intel and one without. But it's split by the wall and the half without the intel provides a great attacking point for the extra distance. The fast retrun times and capping at dropped flags spice up gameplay and proves to be more fun than frustrating and confusing.

    If the middle was as fun as the bases it would probably get a perfect score from me. The middle feels flat, empty, and uninspired comparing it to the bases.

    The higher balconies were rarely used from what i've played because the walkways to it are long and to the side of the battle. I do see it used a bit by jumping classes though.

    I have no problem with the healthkit placement or most of the paths. Where i want/expect there to be supplies there are, and the routes are predictable to where they go

    I feel this path wasn't used because of it's start and end point being both inside the defender's territory.

    NITPICKS: This disorientates me when i'm fighting on it

    I get stuck inside the displacement if i jump into it. Should be playerclipped
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  10. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Positive Ratings:

    Gameplay 7
    Class Involvement 7

    This map is great. Too great. I don't know what to say about the map in this review so it's going to be short

    Touch return saves this map. It may not work in public games but it works awesome in 6v6s.

    Reason why i say it "saves" it, just look at the map. 2 of the 3 connections to the bases lead into the middle, not the "yard/infront of middle". This is good considering it's size, because there is not much of a yard.

    Without touch return it would just lead to effortless scout caps if a team isn't watching every path.

    Touch return causes the teams to be aware of the objective at all times and to use coordinated pushes to get the intel, not just sending a scout to grab it without effort like some maps >.>

    I only have few problems with the layouts. 2 cramped places


    It's not where much fighting happens though, so it's not a biggy

    Overall great map!
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  11. owly-oop

    aa owly-oop im birb

    Positive Ratings:

    Gameplay 1
    Class Involvement 3

    I have never had fun playing this map pubs or pugs. The map seems to run on a "hook" or "get attacked from behind if you attack" formula.

    The middle is useless and just means death if you plan on using it for attacking.

    The only use for it is if a jumping class goes up to the battlements.

    It's also pretty flat. Only 2 levels. The bridge, and the lava. I'm calling it lava because you will survive longer in lava than to be on the ground level.

    This map screws over people who attack the intel. There's 2 walkable paths into the intel (3 if you count the jumping one). So to get the intel you need to push with uber, or get it while they're not paying attention

    The only good path goes behind the intel, so if you're defending the enemy surrounds you. But it becomes okay when you can see all the entrances by standing on the intel.

    Pushing into the intel successfully, spawn camping becomes a problem. The spawns are close to the intel. You could take the spawndoor path directly to mid but that goes back to the problem of promoting objectives. Really if your based is being attacked the top priority should be to retake it, but the layout does not reflect that.

    The optimal route never sees the enemy. The map seems to promote everything but direct combat. The lack of flow and concentrated battle removes any good class inolvement

    Also, this is the most awkward place to shoot in/out of. Ever. Feels like a half-assed way added to attack the intel from a 3rd angle.
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  12. Icarus

    aa Icarus

    Positive Ratings:
    bump 4 super
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  13. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

    Positive Ratings:
    7:47 PM - supersandvich: no one comments on my judge reviews :<

  14. Trotim

    aa Trotim

    Positive Ratings:
    cool reviews bro

    EDIT: am gonna edit this until you thank me
    you should probably resize the images properly and then post them as images instead of links
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2010
  15. Languid

    Languid L5: Dapper Member

    Positive Ratings:
    I like these reviews because unlike anyone else you look closely at how layout, spawn placement and pickups adversely effect attacking routes. You also have a hell of a lot of feedback in each review, which is nice.

    Thumbs up all round.
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  16. Jimmy

    Jimmy L7: Fancy Member

    Positive Ratings:
Buy Elder Scrolls Online: Greymoor for PC at Green Man Gaming