IDLERS BEWARE! BLU is onto you!

[Terr]

Go back and read the TF2F thread, I've given two logic based proofs to why it's not cheating.

If you're going to talk about it here, quote yourself from these other forums or at least provide a link. It's not fair to make others hunt around and/or register at external forums in order to support your own argument.

 

[tarmo-]

*opens console
*typing "map achievement_idle

atleast im not using the idleprogram now and can't be punished...?
i have my game open and running all the time then...

 

[Jack Riguel]

No longer actively encouraging with bonus features is not the same as discouraging. If someone stops playing after four hours just[/b] because it no longer gets them more hats, then they're playing the game for all the wrong reasons.

You'll be surprised at how stupid people really are. :/

 

[GManNickG]

Here is a link to the thread. (Note: Don't expect as much maturity as I think you'd get here.) My apologies for not providing the link sooner. I was too amazed by Frag's ability to dramatize being attacked and then repeat his argument ad nauseam.

Here's just the semi-formal argument:

Idling isn't cheating.

Definitions:
cheating - to bring advantage to a player through trickery
advantage - x is said to have an advantage over y if x has something that provides x with an ability y does not have.
trickery - to bring about an event through unintended causes
cosmetic - An object x is said to be cosmetic when it does not directly affect gameplay, and only changes the appearance of the game.
hat - A cosmetic item that changes the appearance of a player.
idling - to allow game time to pass to receive hats

Proposition A:
An object x can provide an advantage to a player if and only if that object affects game play.

Proposition C:
Cosmetics do not provide an advantage to a player.

Because cosmetics cannot affect gameplay, by definition, and because an advantage can only be given by affecting gameplay (P. A), cosmetics cannot provide an advantage. This is evidenced by the ability for players to have the same skill level regardless if their opponents are wearing BLU or RED costumes.

Proposition H:
Hats do not provide an advantage.

From P. C, we conclude that because hats are cosmetic, they provide no advantage to any player.

Proposition I:
Idling does not provide an advantage.

Because idling only provides hats, and hats do not provide an advantage (P. H), idling does not provide an advantage.

Conclusion:
Idling is not cheating.

By definition, to cheat one has to provide an advantage. Because idling does not provide an advantage (P. I), it is not cheating.

 

[Fragimus_Max]

"The idle server is essentially 'cheating'..."
- Robin Walker, co-creator, Team Fortress Series

[ame="http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=942963"]http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=942963[/ame]


Fin

 

[Rikka]

I'm trying to think of why anyone would care if something's cheating if it doesn't affect any other player at all. I'm drawing a blank.

 

[J4CK8]

I don't see why players are idling for something they can't see themselves if they play properly.

Personaly I don't care about getting a hat other than to say to my friends "Ha, I got a hat before you, prepare to be jealous." And then I'd wear it whenever I played that class. Most likely never.

 

[Terr]

"Cheating" is a very loaded term. Hell, you get people who claim exploting map bugs "isn't cheating" because "it's in the map" and who will insist you can't call it cheating unless you've gotten a notarized document from the mapmaker.

Can we agree on all these points, at least? Idling is...

• Against the game designers' plan and wishes.
• Confers a currently-aesthetic benefit on those who do so.
• Is an act of deliberate commission rather than accident.
• Rewards people for something they ought not to be doing

 

[GManNickG]

"The idle server is essentially 'cheating'..."
- Robin Walker, co-creator, Team Fortress Series

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=942963


Fin

I already told you this is a fallacy. [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority[/ame]

Robin is still subject to the same logical system as everyone else.

 

[A Boojum Snark]

I already told you this is a fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

Robin is still subject to the same logical system as everyone else.

I don't see how the fallacy applies. It's not an authoritative/knowledgeable third party stating something about a subject they happen to know about. It's more along the lines of a god stating a fact of his creation. He made the original game, he is the lead designer on this one, it is his world, his word is law. If he claims it is cheating then it is.

 

[Terr]

It's not an authority-fallacy to cite TF2 developers when talking about what constitutes cheating in the game they create, mainly because "cheating" is something they can plausibly define by fiat.

I'm an authority on what my favorite food is, or whether a certain path in a map I make is a bug. If someone quotes me saying something about either subject, it's hardly fallacious for them to do so.

 

[Ankh]

yes Robin's subject to the same logical system as everyone else but he isn't making the appeal. Also his intention is that it is subverting the system that they've set in place , hence him saying "cheating" which is actually correct.

The argument that it isn't cheating is flawed because saying that the hats give you no advantage over other players is a non-sequiter and has nothing to do with the idler. The question is whether the idler gives you an advantage over other players, and it does. Also saying that the advantage can only be given by affecting gameplay is also a false premise because we're not talking about a gameplay advantage, but a time advantage.

Not that I don't agree with you and think that punishing the idlers is stupid because the system itself is unfair and idling only gives you a very marginal advantage and and in around 250 hours of idling I've still got no hats. I also think it's an absolutely victimless crime and if they wanted us to stop doing it then maybe they should implement item trading and working towards a specific item before removing unlocks.

 

[Jack Riguel]

yes Robin's subject to the same logical system as everyone else but he isn't making the appeal. Also his intention is that it is subverting the system that they've set in place , hence him saying "cheating" which is actually correct.

The argument that it isn't cheating is flawed because saying that the hats give you no advantage over other players is a non-sequiter and has nothing to do with the idler. The question is whether the idler gives you an advantage over other players, and it does. Also saying that the advantage can only be given by affecting gameplay is also a false premise because we're not talking about a gameplay advantage, but a time advantage.

Not that I don't agree with you and think that punishing the idlers is stupid because the system itself is unfair and idling only gives you a very marginal advantage and and in around 250 hours of idling I've still got no hats. I also think it's an absolutely victimless crime and if they wanted us to stop doing it then maybe they should implement item trading and working towards a specific item before removing unlocks.

This is probably one of the best Anti-Idler statements I've seen yet. You're right, it's not a gameplay advantage (which is why no VAC bans have or will ever be handed out) but a time one.

 

[ChronoTriggerFan]

"The idle server is essentially 'cheating'..."
- Robin Walker, co-creator, Team Fortress Series

http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=942963


Fin

"The idle server is essentially "cheating", but they're not able to earn items any faster than someone who's playing during that time"

Theres a difference between cheating the system, and using it to its maximum extent.
*Calls out valve's bluff*

 

[GManNickG]

It's not an authority-fallacy to cite TF2 developers when talking about what constitutes cheating in the game they create, mainly because "cheating" is something they can plausibly define by fiat.

I'm an authority on what my favorite food is, or whether a certain path in a map I make is a bug. If someone quotes me saying something about either subject, it's hardly fallacious for them to do so.

You're misunderstanding.

Just because someone says its cheating does not make it so, no matter who they are.

Of course you're authoritative on what your opinions are, such as favorite food. Your statement is of fact: "I like apples". What makes it an opinion is when you generalize it: "Apples are good.". The first (factual) one is interpreted as true, because you are the only one who can truthfully say if you like apples.

I'm having trouble explaining but do you see the difference? Just because Robin Walker has more authority than us doesn't make his statements any more true of false.

What doesmatter is when you consider other truths: Robin Walker decides what's okay to do in TF2. This is a statement of fact. And because Robin might feel idling is not okay, whether or not he is actually right makes no bearing on the original premise, that he chooses what is okay.

So whether it's cheating or not, Robin Walker can enforce his proposition. It doesn't make his proposition true.

 

[Savage Alien]

I like how Robin quoted "cheating".

It's like saying that by taping down your analog stick to auto walk to gain XP in Morrowind while you go do something else is "cheating" while on the other hand if you were there playing the game just walking around manually it'd be fine. Of course the idler app takes it a step further and pretends that TF2 is running, but it's still a form of "auto-pilot".

I wonder why you're so bent on labelling >10000 players as cheaters, Frag. Is it the app or any means of idling? People have clearly stated good reasons for their use of the idler and you still say you haven't heard a good one. Most of the time it's because they'd rather not run tf2 and use up precious system resources. Don't take any of this as an attack on your opinion, by all means go ahead and disagree. We shouldn't have to run this app. I miss the achievements since we at least had some control over receiving an item.

Heck, TF2 is nearly 2 years old.. and I'm sure most of us who have been playing since Beta just want to complete our backpack collection and get on with with our gaming lives.

But at least there are server mods that allow you to equip every hat even another class'. :woot:

 

[Savage Alien]

Somehow I doubt they're going to punish anyone, observe:

Hm, why can't I see that rocket launcher in his backpack?

http://www.tf2items.com/profiles/76561197961366266

 

[Ankh]

Because that was a server side mod, the rocket launcher, though he deserves it for his contributions to impoverished Irishmen everywhere, it does not actually exist

I also like it how apparently only one person read my post explaining why exactly it was cheating the system

 

[J4CK8]

Hm, why can't I see that rocket launcher in his backpack?

http://www.tf2items.com/profiles/76561197961366266

He explained in the thread that it was only on that server, and wasn't in his backpack when he checked.

Because that was a server side mod, the rocket launcher, though he deserves it for his contributions to impoverished Irishmen everywhere, it does not actually exist

I also like it how apparently only one person read my post explaining why exactly it was cheating the system

I read it, I just didn't care too much Whether you think it is cheating or not, who really cares? Just play the damn game and have a grudge against everyone who has a hat becuase you suspect they may have idled for it. After all, if they did idle, they're only cheating themselves of an ingame suprise.

 

[Savage Alien]

He explained in the thread that it was only on that server, and wasn't in his backpack when he checked.

Ok, thanks for the reply, both of you.