TC Hydro

[RaVaGe]

Bro, my message to doom was far to be harsh and if he took it bad i'm sorry about that.

Then when I say the players are retarded, it's really the case, nowadays all what they want is just to play the simplest map, because they don't want to learn anything, and if it's too complicated, they simply say it's too much complicated, that the map is bad, and nobody want to play it again.

That's my point, and i'm really tired to hear something like that, the overall games tends to be more and more simple, because the players are getting more and more retarded, they don't want to spend time on something they don't want to, then if they must do it, the game is just bad to their eyes.

Hydro is pretty simple, at least to my eyes, the main issue of hydro is just the bad chokepoints, and the fact that you need to defend and attack at the same moment.

 

[Sergis]

I'm sorry to interrupt but there is an update. I have removed the CP injecting system and instead added manual round priority control. I have also lowered all captimes for the middle rounds' points.

I still haven't sped up all the doors, sown all the seams, added specific signs for middle point and there was a fourth thing to do but i forgot that. It's all on my to-do list though.

On topic on confusingness, what I have to say is there are areas in Hydro that I had never seen until I opened the map in Hammer.

 

[Sergis]

There was a question about KotH style TC in the impromptu. I don't want to do that with Hydro because the layout was designed for each team having a CP on their side. Making it KotH would see those areas go unplayed, un-fought-over. Also, there are no good places for a proper middle point, the ones I chose are merely best of worst and I wouldn't want them to become the only points players fight over.

Also, it seems I have broken blocking control point captures which might have contributed to the average round time of 2:18 in the last test. Sadly there seems to be no simple way to fix it and I'll have to lock and unlock points "manually".

 

[Pocket]

I kept finding myself missing the middle point entirely and winding up on the other side. I understand that you want to experiment with your ideas for "fixing" TC by starting with a map that people are already familiar with, like when that one guy used 2fort as the jumping-off point for experimenting with one-sided CTF, but Hydro may be just too complex and too ... already-designed-with-a-specific-style-of-gameplay-in-mind to pull that off.

 

[Sergis]

Yeah, actually directing players to the middle point is my main concern right after getting the logic working in the first place. I'm more experimenting with fixing Hydro itself, not TC as a whole though.

 

[Sergis]

After 5 tests in 9 days, I have compiled some statistics.

Mostly done for fun but it does tell me a few things. Firstly, the rounds are too damn fast unless they stalemate ( tank u captin obvius ). Second, point B ( control point on the bridge ) appears to be less defendable than others. Thirdly, blu base is bloody undefendable ( thought it did almost got defended in the last imp ).

There was a good suggestion to add setup times to final rounds, but I'm not sure if I want to do that yet. When attacking blu last point, red run through a rather narrow alley with no alternate paths. If i make setup gate be the spawnroom door, the spawncamp might be to strong. If alternatively I make setup gates at the base entrance, red team can reach the cp with a bit more uber left than I'd like them to. And I don't feel like making new rooms and pathways because the map is too close to the engine limits as it is.

 

[stegarootbeer]

It might be good to give whoever owns mid an advantage to help avoid stalemates, something like better spawn times I guess.

 

[Sergis]

I do give 2 second spawntime advantage, though the main advantage the middle point gives is that you can lose a CP and not lose the round besides, there have been 3 stalemates over 47 rounds so far. Seems ok to me.

In other news, I've hit MAX_MAP_BRUSHSIDES trying to make a steel style chalkboard. Damn.

 

[Sergis]

Updated to test10. I have defeated the MAX_MAP_BRUSHSIDES demon but I fear he may return for I paid 6.66 for my foodstuffs today and next weeks' Friday is the 13th.

- added steel style blackboards to spawnrooms
- fixed middle cp not adding respawntime correctly
- upgraded some pickups at hard to defend CPs
- made respawntime ramp up a minute later to lengthen the rounds

 

[Sergis]

test11
- reduced midpoint captime by 1 second
- added some light over the blackboards
- moved the point in CD (dam - dish) round to a more natural place
- made plans to move the point in AD (powerplant - dish) round in next version

 

[Harribo]

I much prefered the new mid point

 

[Sergis]

Behold the 3CP TC engine! There's been a few updates since the last page.

she's a beauty, isn't she

 

[Sergis]

Coming up sometime later when i sort out some more displacement seams:

Moved CP in AD ( powerplant - dish crossround )

Moved CP in BD ( bridge - dish ). idk if this is better or worse tbh

 

[Sergis]

Well, this map is about as good as I can make it. We're done here.

 

[Sergis]

Just for fun, the compile log of this behemoth:


** Executing...
** Command: "C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress 2\bin\vbsp.exe"
** Parameters: -game "C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress 2\tf" "c:\program files\steam\steamapps\xsergis\sourcesdk_content\tf\mapsrc\tc_hydro_v2"

Valve Software - vbsp.exe (Jan 23 2014)
4 threads
materialPath: C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress 2\tf\materials
Loading c:\program files\steam\steamapps\xsergis\sourcesdk_content\tf\mapsrc\tc_hydro_v2.vmf
ConVarRef mat_reduceparticles doesn't point to an existing ConVar
Patching WVT material: maps/tc_hydro_v2/nature/blendrockground006_wvt_patch
Patching WVT material: maps/tc_hydro_v2/nature/blendrockground004_wvt_patch
fixing up env_cubemap materials on brush sides...
ProcessBlock_Thread: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (1)
ProcessBlock_Thread: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (1)
Processing areas...done (0)
Building Faces...done (0)
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Chop Details...done (1)
Find Visible Detail Sides...
Merged 2360 detail faces...done (2)
Merging details...done (0)
FixTjuncs...
PruneNodes...
WriteBSP...
done (5)
writing c:\program files\steam\steamapps\xsergis\sourcesdk_content\tf\mapsrc\tc_hydro_v2.prt...Building visibility clusters...
done (0)
Creating default LDR cubemaps for env_cubemap using skybox materials:
skybox/sky_hydro_01*.vmt
! Run buildcubemaps in the engine to get the correct cube maps.
Creating default HDR cubemaps for env_cubemap using skybox materials:
skybox/sky_hydro_01*.vmt
! Run buildcubemaps in the engine to get the correct cube maps.
Finding displacement neighbors...
Found a displacement edge abutting multiple other edges.
Finding lightmap sample positions...
Displacement Alpha : 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10
Building Physics collision data...
done (4) (2855447 bytes)
Placing detail props : 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10
Compacting texture/material tables...
Reduced 16615 texinfos to 8785
Reduced 417 texdatas to 344 (16246 bytes to 12744)
Writing c:\program files\steam\steamapps\xsergis\sourcesdk_content\tf\mapsrc\tc_hydro_v2.bsp
41 seconds elapsed
-100.990402 -39.014400 0.000000
-101.599998 -39.725601 0.000000
-101.599998 -39.014400 0.000000
-100.787201 -39.014400 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-18.694399 54.863998 0.000000
-9.550400 54.863998 0.000000
-6.502400 53.848000 0.000000
-6.502400 54.863998 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-20.523199 60.553600 0.000000
-20.320000 61.569599 0.000000
-20.320000 60.553600 0.000000
-21.132799 60.553600 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-20.523199 60.553600 0.000000
-20.320000 61.569599 0.000000
-20.320000 60.553600 0.000000
-21.132799 60.553600 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-19.100800 60.553600 0.000000
-18.694399 61.569599 0.000000
-18.694399 60.553600 0.000000
-20.320000 60.553600 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-19.100800 60.553600 0.000000
-18.694399 61.569599 0.000000
-18.694399 60.553600 0.000000
-20.320000 60.553600 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-9.550400 60.553600 0.000000
-6.502400 61.569599 0.000000
-6.502400 60.553600 0.000000
-18.694399 60.553600 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-9.550400 60.553600 0.000000
-6.502400 61.569599 0.000000
-6.502400 60.553600 0.000000
-18.694399 60.553600 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-21.132799 71.932800 0.000000
-20.523199 71.932800 0.000000
-20.320000 70.916801 0.000000
-20.320000 71.932800 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-21.132799 71.932800 0.000000
-20.523199 71.932800 0.000000
-20.320000 70.916801 0.000000
-20.320000 71.932800 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-18.694399 71.932800 0.000000
-9.550400 71.932800 0.000000
-6.502400 70.916801 0.000000
-6.502400 71.932800 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-18.694399 71.932800 0.000000
-9.550400 71.932800 0.000000
-6.502400 70.916801 0.000000
-6.502400 71.932800 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-20.320000 77.622398 0.000000
-19.100800 77.622398 0.000000
-18.694399 76.606400 0.000000
-18.694399 77.622398 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-20.320000 77.622398 0.000000
-19.100800 77.622398 0.000000
-18.694399 76.606400 0.000000
-18.694399 77.622398 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-0.279400 -2.044524 0.000000
0.355600 -1.986289 0.000000
0.355600 -2.044524 0.000000
-0.355600 -2.044524 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert
-0.279400 -2.044524 0.000000
0.355600 -1.986289 0.000000
0.355600 -2.044524 0.000000
-0.355600 -2.044524 0.000000
make_triangles:calc_triangle_representation: Cannot convert

** Executing...
** Command: "C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress 2\bin\vvis.exe"
** Parameters: -low -game "C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress 2\tf" "c:\program files\steam\steamapps\xsergis\sourcesdk_content\tf\mapsrc\tc_hydro_v2"

Valve Software - vvis.exe (Jan 23 2014)
4 threads
reading c:\program files\steam\steamapps\xsergis\sourcesdk_content\tf\mapsrc\tc_hydro_v2.bsp
reading c:\program files\steam\steamapps\xsergis\sourcesdk_content\tf\mapsrc\tc_hydro_v2.prt
3342 portalclusters
8612 numportals
BasePortalVis: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (5)
PortalFlow: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (457)
Optimized: 14544 visible clusters (1.48%)
Total clusters visible: 983395
Average clusters visible: 294
Building PAS...
Average clusters audible: 1433
visdatasize:1351427 compressed from 2834016
writing c:\program files\steam\steamapps\xsergis\sourcesdk_content\tf\mapsrc\tc_hydro_v2.bsp
7 minutes, 43 seconds elapsed

** Executing...
** Command: "C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress 2\bin\vrad.exe"
** Parameters: -low -textureshadows -StaticPropLighting -StaticPropPolys -game "C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress 2\tf" "c:\program files\steam\steamapps\xsergis\sourcesdk_content\tf\mapsrc\tc_hydro_v2"

Valve Software - vrad.exe SSE (Jan 23 2014)

Valve Radiosity Simulator
4 threads
[Reading texlights from 'lights.rad']
[34 texlights parsed from 'lights.rad']

Loading c:\program files\steam\steamapps\xsergis\sourcesdk_content\tf\mapsrc\tc_hydro_v2.bsp
Loaded alpha texture materials\Models\props_gameplay\security_fence_alpha.vtf
Loaded alpha texture materials\models\props_foliage\grass_01.vtf
Loaded alpha texture materials\models\props_foliage\grass_01_skin2.vtf
Loaded alpha texture materials\models\props_foliage\shrub_03.vtf
Loaded alpha texture materials\models\props_foliage\shrub_03_skin2.vtf
Loaded alpha texture materials\models\props_foliage\grass_02.vtf
Loaded alpha texture materials\models\props_foliage\grass_02.vtf
Loaded alpha texture materials\models\props_foliage\grass_02_snow.vtf
Loaded alpha texture materials\models\props_foliage\shrub_03_snow.vtf
Loaded alpha texture materials\models\props_foliage\shrub_01a.vtf
Loaded alpha texture materials\models\props_foliage\bramble01a.vtf
Loaded alpha texture materials\models\props_foliage\shrub_03_card.vtf
Loaded alpha texture materials\models\props_foliage\shrub_03_card_skin2.vtf
Loaded alpha texture materials\models\props_foliage\shrub_03_card_skin3.vtf
Loaded alpha texture materials\models\props_foliage\deadtree01.vtf
Setting up ray-trace acceleration structure... Done (81.73 seconds)
23966 faces
2775095 square feet [399613728.00 square inches]
1720 Displacements
616739 Square Feet [88810472.00 Square Inches]
23966 patches before subdivision
213564 patches after subdivision
sun extent from map=0.008727
550 direct lights
BuildFacelights: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (135)
BuildVisLeafs: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (90)
transfers 18577355, max 755
transfer lists: 141.7 megs
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (0)
Bounce #1 added RGB(1071606, 805662, 710797)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (1)
Bounce #2 added RGB(284181, 190620, 141956)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (0)
Bounce #3 added RGB(81764, 51190, 33533)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (0)
Bounce #4 added RGB(26584, 15398, 8831)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (1)
Bounce #5 added RGB(9039, 4902, 2521)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (0)
Bounce #6 added RGB(3242, 1645, 762)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (0)
Bounce #7 added RGB(1200, 572, 242)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (1)
Bounce #8 added RGB(459, 206, 80)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (0)
Bounce #9 added RGB(181, 76, 27)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (0)
Bounce #10 added RGB(73, 29, 10)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (1)
Bounce #11 added RGB(30, 11, 3)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (0)
Bounce #12 added RGB(13, 4, 1)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (0)
Bounce #13 added RGB(6, 2, 0)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (1)
Bounce #14 added RGB(3, 1, 0)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (0)
Bounce #15 added RGB(1, 0, 0)
GatherLight: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (0)
Bounce #16 added RGB(1, 0, 0)
Build Patch/Sample Hash Table(s).....Done<0.1281 sec>
FinalLightFace: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (39)
FinalLightFace Done
42 of 179 (23% of) surface lights went in leaf ambient cubes.
ThreadComputeLeafAmbient: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (96)
Writing leaf ambient...done
Computing static prop lighting : 0ThreadComputeStaticPropLighting: 0...1...2...3...4...5...6...7...8...9...10 (209)

Ready to Finish

Object names Objects/Maxobjs Memory / Maxmem Fullness
------------ --------------- --------------- --------
models 324/1024 15552/49152 (31.6%)
brushes 7888/8192 94656/98304 (96.3%) VERY FULL!
brushsides 57802/65536 462416/524288 (88.2%) VERY FULL!
planes 25094/65536 501880/1310720 (38.3%)
vertexes 44696/65536 536352/786432 (68.2%)
nodes 10606/65536 339392/2097152 (16.2%)
texinfos 8785/12288 632520/884736 (71.5%)
texdata 344/2048 11008/65536 (16.8%)
dispinfos 1720/0 302720/0 ( 0.0%)
disp_verts 43168/0 863360/0 ( 0.0%)
disp_tris 55328/0 110656/0 ( 0.0%)
disp_lmsamples 1331364/0 1331364/0 ( 0.0%)
faces 23966/65536 1342096/3670016 (36.6%)
hdr faces 0/65536 0/3670016 ( 0.0%)
origfaces 19801/65536 1108856/3670016 (30.2%)
leaves 10931/65536 349792/2097152 (16.7%)
leaffaces 27760/65536 55520/131072 (42.4%)
leafbrushes 18373/65536 36746/131072 (28.0%)
areas 67/256 536/2048 (26.2%)
surfedges 195891/512000 783564/2048000 (38.3%)
edges 127605/256000 510420/1024000 (49.8%)
LDR worldlights 550/8192 48400/720896 ( 6.7%)
HDR worldlights 0/8192 0/720896 ( 0.0%)
leafwaterdata 2/32768 24/393216 ( 0.0%)
waterstrips 2596/32768 25960/327680 ( 7.9%)
waterverts 0/65536 0/786432 ( 0.0%)
waterindices 48840/65536 97680/131072 (74.5%)
cubemapsamples 238/1024 3808/16384 (23.2%)
overlays 482/512 169664/180224 (94.1%) VERY FULL!
LDR lightdata [variable] 12185176/0 ( 0.0%)
HDR lightdata [variable] 0/0 ( 0.0%)
visdata [variable] 1351427/16777216 ( 8.1%)
entdata [variable] 527315/393216 (134.1%) VERY FULL!
LDR ambient table 10931/65536 43724/262144 (16.7%)
HDR ambient table 10931/65536 43724/262144 (16.7%)
LDR leaf ambient 56826/65536 1591128/1835008 (86.7%) VERY FULL!
HDR leaf ambient 10931/65536 306068/1835008 (16.7%)
occluders 28/0 1120/0 ( 0.0%)
occluder polygons 64/0 768/0 ( 0.0%)
occluder vert ind 283/0 1132/0 ( 0.0%)
detail props [variable] 1/12 ( 8.3%)
static props [variable] 1/209384 ( 0.0%)
pakfile [variable] 37272698/0 ( 0.0%)
physics [variable] 2855447/4194304 (68.1%)
physics terrain [variable] 285874/1048576 (27.3%)

Level flags = 1

Total triangle count: 68471
Writing c:\program files\steam\steamapps\xsergis\sourcesdk_content\tf\mapsrc\tc_hydro_v2.bsp
11 minutes, 0 seconds elapsed

** Executing...
** Command: Copy File
** Parameters: "c:\program files\steam\steamapps\xsergis\sourcesdk_content\tf\mapsrc\tc_hydro_v2.bsp" "C:\Program Files\Steam\steamapps\common\Team Fortress 2\tf\maps\tc_hydro_v2.bsp"

 

[Prestige]

wow @
** Executing...
** Command: Copy File

crazy!!!

 

[Sergis]

that is insane, tho my personal favorite is 134% entdata

 

[Sergis]

note to self - sort this shit out so it doesnt crash large servers, preferably in this decade

] report_entities
Class: ambient_generic (22)
Class: ai_network (1)
Class: beam (144)
Class: env_fog_controller (1)
Class: env_lightglow (35)
Class: env_soundscape (2)
Class: env_soundscape_proxy (63)
Class: env_sprite (91)
Class: filter_activator_tfteam (12)
Class: env_sun (1)
Class: func_areaportal (153)
Class: env_tonemap_controller (1)
Class: func_areaportalwindow (8)
Class: func_brush (180)
Class: func_door (28)
Class: func_illusionary (37)
Class: func_lod (1)
Class: func_nobuild (1)
Class: func_occluder (28)
Class: func_respawnroom (6)
Class: func_regenerate (11)
Class: func_respawnroomvisualizer (23)
Class: info_particle_system (1)
Class: game_round_win (2)
Class: info_player_teamspawn (96)
Class: info_observer_point (6)
Class: info_target (1)
Class: item_ammopack_small (22)
Class: item_ammopack_full (6)
Class: item_healthkit_medium (15)
Class: item_ammopack_medium (10)
Class: item_healthkit_small (25)
Class: light (5)
Class: keyframe_rope (86)
Class: logic_branch (6)
Class: logic_branch_listener (18)
Class: move_rope (38)
Class: logic_relay (35)
Class: phys_bone_follower (4)
Class: monster_resource (1)
Class: player (1)
Class: point_teleport (6)
Class: point_spotlight (144)
Class: prop_dynamic (111)
Class: scene_manager (1)
Class: prop_physics_multiplayer (7)
Class: shadow_control (1)
Class: sky_camera (1)
Class: soundent (1)
Class: team_control_point (7)
Class: spotlight_end (144)
Class: team_control_point_master (1)
Class: tf_objective_resource (1)
Class: team_control_point_round (8)
Class: tf_player_manager (1)
Class: team_round_timer (3)
Class: tf_team (4)
Class: tf_gamerules (1)
Class: tf_viewmodel (2)
Class: tf_mann_vs_machine_stats (1)
Class: trigger_capture_area (7)
Class: trigger_hurt (4)
Class: trigger_multiple (24)
Class: vote_controller (1)
Class: water_lod_control (1)
Class: worldspawn (1)
Total 1710 entities (0 empty, 1638 edicts)

 

[radarhead]

phys_bone_follower? monster_resource? tf_mann_vs_machine_stats? spotlight_end?

What are all these entities, and why does Hydro need them?

 

[Crowbar]

Gimmicks or maybe decompile shit or something not.
A decade is reasonable time needed guess.