Gaming Night: Part VIII - Some Day Soon

[ryodoan]

Gaming Night: Part VII reflection thread (new thread made for Part VIII)

Gaming Night: Part VII Recap
There has been some debate over the maps that got played, didnt get played, got suggested, didnt get suggested, ect.

First I want to say if you have a problem with the maps suggested THIS IS THE PLACE TO MAKE THOSE COMPLAINTS. Last week NOBODY complained about the maps that were submitted here until AFTER they were already being uploaded to the server. That aggravates me. Especially since the ones complained about where on this list the entire time.

Next up on the complaint list ties in with the first complaint. What maps should we be playing? I made an extensive post on my feelings to which I dont think anyone replied or even read so I will repeat it here for your viewing and debating pleasure (with some modifications):

• Play custom maps from our members in all stages of completion.
  • You slapped together a concept and want to see how it works? Great, we will at least play a round or two to let you know how it works
  • You have been working on a map for months and finally want some game feedback? Great, we will play it and suggest tweaks to your map.
  • You have made a map, consider it finished and just want other people to play it? Sweet, we will kill each other, maybe complain a bit, but keep the criticism constructive.
• Play maps that people really enjoy, but dont get to play that often.
  • These can be custom maps that other people have made that you really like, submit them and We will fit them into the rotation. (PS. I really like custom CTF maps)
• Get less active Steam Group members to play with us. These are the people that just joined the group but have not been active. They will get a Steam Group alert saying that we are playing together as a group. Even if just one out of 50 come join us that is 4 inactive people hanging out with us, with the potential of them becoming active.
• Get people that dont even know about us, but like to play custom maps to see our server online and come play with us. Maybe one or two will stop by the chat room or stop by the forums. Either way we gain a couple new people and more people hear about us.

To my knowledge the idea of a gaming day was started so that we all could get together for one day and play together. We can accomplish multiple things, give feedback to people who want it, play maps we all enjoy, and generally hang out and have fun. It is not 100% about testing, I consider testing to be a nice outcome but not the only goal. One complaint that has consistently come up that peeves me a little is the whole, "Nobody in our group made that map so we should not play it." or "They don't want feedback so we shouldn't play it." I don't care if they are not in our group or don't want feedback. As long as its fun I think we should play it. If its not fun we can move on past it to the next map.

If the map designer submits his map for testing or if he is on the server then I think we owe it to them to play through it for the fully allocated time, but if they are not there or if it was not the designer that submitted the map then if the majority of people on the server want to switch to a new map then so be it.

As for rotation. I will admit that was a bit screwed up last Saturday and we should stick to the designated rotation.

Just to hit on the "What Maps" topic again to clarify my position:

• Maps submitted for the purpose of testing should get the full 30 minutes even if it is disliked.
• Maps submitted for the purpose of playing for fun will be allocated 30 minutes, and if they are disliked, they can be skipped / cut short.
• All maps that are submitted should be debated in this thread, when map submissions end so does your right to have it vetoed before it is placed in the rotation.

Gaming Night VII
When:

• Indeterminate: If yall want to have it this saturday I cant guarantee I will be able to ensure that everything that needs to get done will be done. This is a busy week for me, its the end of the quarter and this weekend is Easter. So I will be out of town most of friday, then be very busy saturday / sunday.
• If someone else wants to handle the organization for an event this weekend, go for it, otherwise I say we hold off until next weekend (the 30th)

Where:

• TF2Maps.net partner server Colt's Playground: 84.45.84.166:27015
  • Link should connect you straight to the server
• If someone has a US server that they are willing to let us use for ALL our events (I dont want to skip around to different servers each week), are willing to give us Admin, and are willing to be responsive to map upload requests then contact Immortal-D or DrPepper.

Maps:

1. If you are submitting a map, please do one of the following:
   1. Include a link to a publicly released version
   2. If there is no publicly released version send either me or DrPepper a forum PM (or contact me on steam) containing a link to a version that we can post onto the server.
2. *note* we will most likely NOT have a password on the server so any maps submitted can still be download by the general public and there is a chance they might like it enough to try and post it to the internet without first asking permission. Keep this in mind.

• <Submitter> - <For Testing yes/no> - <Map Name + Link to Map> - <Link to map discussion>

Slightly different submission process this time, here is the info I want:

• Are you submitting this map for testing purposes?
• Link to the Map.
• <optional> Link to a thread discussing your map.

 

[Shmitz]

Carrying over from previous thread:

...any issues about maps being played for too long/too short/not being played at all needs to be said at the time by players. Having said that, players need to stop begging for the next map to be put on...

This contradiction is exactly why I suggested that there should be someone actively taking charge of the event. The players shouldn't be the ones making the decisions about what map to play and when.

 

[ryodoan]

The system I propose is buried up near the top of my post, but basicaly it boils down to this:

- Each map is given 30 minutes and 30 minutes only.
- If the map is up for testing it gets the full 30 minutes, even if people dont like it.
- If the map was suggested just for fun, and people dont like it, then we can change the map. Max time of 30 minutes still.

The reason I see for this is if we have 7-8 maps submitted thats 3.5 - 4 hours right there. Also, its on a rotation so that way the map could still be played multiple times by different people.

 

[DJive]

To my knowledge the idea of a gaming day was started so that we all could get together for one day and play together. We can accomplish multiple things, give feedback to people who want it, play maps we all enjoy, and generally hang out and have fun. It is not 100% about testing, I consider testing to be a nice outcome but not the only goal. One complaint that has consistently come up that peeves me a little is the whole, "Nobody in our group made that map so we should not play it." or "They don't want feedback so we shouldn't play it." I don't care if they are not in our group or don't want feedback. As long as its fun I think we should play it. If its not fun we can move on past it to the next map.

If the map designer submits his map for testing or if he is on the server then I think we owe it to them to play through it for the fully allocated time, but if they are not there or if it was not the designer that submitted the map then if the majority of people on the server want to switch to a new map then so be it.

Heh *guilty* i was one of those people, 100% actually, but let me explain why.

I feel strongly about the topic as well, from the other side. NOTHING gets me more upset then to play a custom map that feedback is wasted on, that the author has no idea who we are, or what we do here. IMO we have MANY people who worked hard on their maps, getting them ready and getting excited to have them play tested and get some really useful feedback.

When we waste time and people game testing on Snofort or.. Pirateship Which is a *filter* ALPHA ""My First Map" released as a final version whats the point? To me, its a slap in the face to everyone who worked their butts off getting ready for that day.

I personally can play tf2 whenever, and with a lot of you. Its rare we have such a turn out and i think it should be kept mostly for testing newer maps that feedback and player base isn't wasted on.

I do agree every map should get 30mins. I also think we should get our map list and do it IN that order. no votes *period* like Shmitz said, we didnt do so well on the server admin side :001_huh::blush: next time we'll do better with laying down the law =p

Once the maps that are up for testing go through cycle THEN im up for anything, snofort or whatever =)

EDIT: im certainly not against playing any map that isn't from here or Colts, but i would rather "those" maps hit the cycle after the maps from us and colts run through.

 

[Colt Seavers]

shall i disable rtv on the next night>? Or always - on that server, to ensure that maps in the rotation get a play unless admin decides otherwise?

Easy to do - I dont have rtv on the main server.

I'll make sure the 30 min limit is set.

I'm going to speak to Youme and we will work out a regular rotation including loads of tf2maps.net maps. For now, the game day rotation is still up and will remain so fo feel free to jump on. By the way - we often play tf2maps.net maps on the min playground server at peak times - just keep an eye out and jump on . They are all on the server but yeah - somehow dont all appear in the mani menu.

 

[DJive]

Nah, i wouldn't disable RTV.

like i said above though, next game day will be better handled by admin(s) on the server.

 

[ryodoan]

maybe if you could just disable RTV on the day we decide? If thats to much work, or you forget not such a big deal, but otherwise I think it would be a good idea.

 

[Colt Seavers]

disabling it at any time is a quick job for me- and in any event, when our partners want a gaming night, it's no trouble

 

[Dox]

I feel strongly about the topic as well, from the other side. NOTHING gets me more upset then to play a custom map that feedback is wasted on, that the author has no idea who we are, or what we do here. IMO we have MANY people who worked hard on their maps, getting them ready and getting excited to have them play tested and get some really useful feedback.
When we waste time and people game testing on Snofort or.. Pirateship Which is a *filter* ALPHA ""My First Map" released as a final version whats the point? To me, its a slap in the face to everyone who worked their butts off getting ready for that day.
EDIT: im certainly not against playing any map that isn't from here or Colts, but i would rather "those" maps hit the cycle after the maps from us and colts run through.

Complete Agreement

 

[Colt Seavers]

the other thing guys - as with at the weekend - you are all more than welcome to join us on ventrilo for game test nights - it's easier to talk and everyone is friendly and chilled. We have many channels - there is a mapping lab channel specifically for map talk Any of you who register on the forum at coltsplayground.net are more than welcome to click the 'ventrilo' banner there and viewable by forum members in a thread - it connects you : chat away

 

[Jimbomcb]

If anybody felt that cp_ignition was on for too long, it was only played once and it went on for so long because the teams were so even. Just putting that out there.

 

[ryodoan]

I want this next event to satisfy everyone, those that want to just test maps, those that want to test and play maps, and those that want to just play maps.

My latest grand scheme is this:

1. We start off with testing maps at 4:00. If you submit your map for testing it will be given an assigned time based on first come first server (first map gets 4:00, next map gets 4:30, next map gets 5:00)
2. After the maps that are being tested are run through we will continue on to the suggested maps that are there for "fun". These maps can be cut short by popular consensus / mood of the admins.
3. After the initial rotation I say go either free for all or start going back through the testing maps. I imagine that at this point its going to be pretty late though.

I still think we should find a US server because the people west of the Midwest United States get pretty horrible ping on the Colt's Playground server and I know we have a lot of people that fall into that category.

A reminder that we are obviously still accepting map submissions and that the mapping submission deadline has not been set yet.

Also a note that anything I have stated in this thread up to this point is open for debate and modification. Its mostly being stated because:
A. I am bored.
B. I thought it up.
C. It sounded good before I had coffee.

 

[Tokit]

In reply to 2 posts in the last thread

For a gameday on a new server, I think things went relatively well. Thanks again to Colt, Youme and the gang for facilitating the server. Admins were responsive in changing maps and altering cvars, there was a large audience prepared to play custom maps, and people were generally friendly. I'd like to hear from the author of cp_hallway (Tokit, yes?) in this thread to see how useful feedback was.

I can't say anything about the intended rotation, but for the next gameday, I will note down the rotation and author of each map. We can cover all maps in the list, giving favor to maps with authors present (as we did with cp_hallway). We need to enforce a hard time limit of 30 minutes, too

I did find the play test with the intended number of players (16-24) very helpful. I found that my one way door theroy did infact suck and clogged up the gameplay. The map lasted a bit longer than it should of but that's only because I'm still balacing out gameplay. I did get a bunch of helpful feedback. I now have a side stairwell on the side of each base and removed that stupid wooden ramp. This takes more time for the player to go up so they can take the top passage, making a slower but a bit safer way.

I definitely agree with Vile's point about timelimits.



According to this, once game day officially started (an hour after it should have), play times went something like this:

• cp_hallway: 49 minutes (author present)
• dom_complex: 27 minutes (author present)
• cp_redstone: 15 minutes (author not present)
• cp_bloodstained: 105 minutes (60 first time and author present, 45 second time and author not present)
• ctf_chaos: 16 minutes (author present)
• ctf_snofort: 4 minutes (author not present)
• cp_science2: 9 minutes (author present)
• ctf_badlands: 53 minutes (author not present)
• cp_ignition: 69 minutes (not on list)
• cp_2kyscraper: 9 minutes (no idea on server population)
• cp_spywinder: ???

It may not actually be practical to set the server time limit shorter, because there's no guarantee that beta maps will adhere to that limit. But there should be an admin who stays on the ball and tries, within reason, to give every map an equal share of time. The above list indicates some pretty strong disparities.

Most maps are still in testing, my map for example right now is just a huge turtle trap so it went on a bit longer than it should, while other maps (cp_science2) Might go a lot faster due to the size and balance of the map. I think the 30 minute flat rule would be a lot better than a 3 round rule like it was on Sunday.

 

[Shmitz]

I want this next event to satisfy everyone, those that want to just test maps, those that want to test and play maps, and those that want to just play maps.

My latest grand scheme is this:

1. We start off with testing maps at 4:00. If you submit your map for testing it will be given an assigned time based on first come first server (first map gets 4:00, next map gets 4:30, next map gets 5:00)
2. After the maps that are being tested are run through we will continue on to the suggested maps that are there for "fun". These maps can be cut short by popular consensus / mood of the admins.
3. After the initial rotation I say go either free for all or start going back through the testing maps. I imagine that at this point its going to be pretty late though.

For point #1, I would like to suggest that maps whose authors are present should get priority. In other words, if you submit a map but aren't there when it comes up in rotation, it gets postponed in favor of a map from someone who is there.

 

[DJive]

I agree. but to more so expand on that so everyone understands.

Shmitz *creator of Roswell* is in the server

the map cycle shows

1. dom_Complex *TheBladeRoden
2. Roswell *Shmitz
3. Snofort *Random Fun Custom

Since Shmitz is on and present and Roden is currently not we would then move his map to first, and put Rodens map second. NOT third because we will play all custom current playtest maps before we start playing older released FUN custom maps.

 

[ryodoan]

For point #1, I would like to suggest that maps whose authors are present should get priority. In other words, if you submit a map but aren't there when it comes up in rotation, it gets postponed in favor of a map from someone who is there.

I am against that for several reasons, not the least of which is it would be an organizational nightmare.

I am going to assign times to submitted maps, or you can say in advance that you can not make a certain time and I will put you in a different time slot. But I dont want to be shuffling people around during the game day trying to keep track of who is on when and who has already had their time.

So the way this will work to expand on DJive is something like this:

1. 4:00 - dom_Complex *TheBladeRoden
2. 4:30 - Roswell *Shmitz
3. Snofort *Random Fun Custom

Dude, I cant make 4:00, but will be there after 5:00

1. 4:00 - <Open>
2. 4:30 - Roswell *Shmitz
3. 5:00 - <Open>
3. 5:30 - dom_Complex *TheBladeRoden
3. Snofort *Random Fun Custom

*note, I am writing all times as EST in a hypthetical situation*

*note note* I want all gaps to be filled in, I dont want the game day to turn in a patchwork of testing, I say we do all the testing at the begining, then move onto other things. If in the end you can not make your time slot you should organize with someone else to record a demo for you.

*note note note* its nothing personal but it was hard enough just trying to stick to a planned rotation it would be true hell to try and shuffle people around. and be swapping maps back and forth all evening. Besides just the organizational difficulties is the fact that what would end up happening is TheBladeRoden and Shmitz woudl both be on at the same time, we would play TheBladeRodens, then Shmitz would go AFK, and he would not be back at the 30 minute mark, so we go play say VilePickles map, Shmitz comes back during the middle of that, then goes afk again, now we are out of planned testing maps and Shmitz is still AFK, so we go onto playing some fun Custom maps, but now Shmitz is back, but we just started playing Badlands Classic and there are a bunch of people who just finished downloading the map and are now playing.... I think if we make a plan and we stick to it. You have all the time in the preceding week to tell us that you cant make a certain time and for us to work around it. If you dont do any of that and you dont show up, maybe some kind soul will record a demo for you.

 

[Shmitz]

The thing I fear is "I can make it at such and such time" will become "I will show up at such and such time and not bother joining before my map's time slot". Hopefully our community is made of better people than that, so we can certainly try strict time assignments. As a general principle though, I think it's a good idea to reward those who actively participate, and giving them priority would be one method of doing that.

 

[ryodoan]

The thing I fear is "I can make it at such and such time" will become "I will show up at such and such time and not bother joining before my map's time slot". Hopefully our community is made of better people than that, so we can certainly try strict time assignments. As a general principle though, I think it's a good idea to reward those who actively participate, and giving them priority would be one method of doing that.

I guess, at the moment I guess I am just getting frustrated by the entire process. I thought that the last game day went pretty well but it seems most people here are unhappy with how it went. It seems that they are unhappy because their maps did not get played which I understand fully. I like to keep stuff organized and methodical. If people are mad that their maps did not get played then we need to come up with a system that will ensure that people have their work played for at least one day.

This reduces the admin overhead and makes the map changes less arbitrary. When its a person making the map changes some maps will get a little more time, we might end up skipping someones map on accident and then the following day will be a repeat of Monday. It reduces confusion over deciding whos map is next in line.

I think that if the map creator only feels that they need to join for their map, then that is ok, that is part of the point of being on the Colts Playground server, access to lots of people who want to play the maps. Look at how disorganized this last event was and we still managed to fill the server for a good 5 - 6 hours.

I know that I could not sit there for the entire time, after 3 1/2 hours of game play I was getting sick of TF2 and had to stop for a supper break.

 

[TheBladeRoden]

I pledge my support for getting a US server

 

[MrAlBobo]

just one thing id like to add...i really support the idea of having 30min rounds
just for the simple reason that its not fun to spend 10mins downloading a map then have it immediately switch (at one point i was complaining a map took far too long to download, and then i found out that the server switched 2 times since i started the download <_<)

if you can manage it, a good idea would be to have a message go out (same way the message announcing the event goes) 24 hours before gameday begins suggesting that people download the rotation, and giving them a link to the appropriate thread.