Furnace Creek (cp_furnace)

YM

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Dec 5, 2007
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Ok I was working more on the skybox, I've slightly adjusted the position of the sun and blended the tone of the sky back into a more blue colour, I'm still not totally happy with it but I think its slightly better than before

(they're all the same sky just from different angles)
 

Ida

deer
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Jan 6, 2008
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Well, after running around it, I can certainly support all comments about the sky being a bit painful to look at. My eyes literally hurt when I looked upwards at the red part.

Now, the new sky still has some of that eyetoasting red, while the coldest part looks somewhat...too cold. It doesn't look like a sunset at all. I'd suggest keeping the sky like in a1, but using the colour that's right between the left and middle images in you sky panorama instead of eyetoast red. It would be warm and feel like a sunset, and hopefully comfortable to look at as well.

Also: I tried the map, and...well, what can I say? It's definitely promising. I think the points all look somewhat same-y, they're all inside small buildings in the middle of relatively flat arenas. I guess the future detailing could help remedy that feeling, though. In a way, the way the areas connect also makes Furnace remind me too much of Gravel Pit, but then again, that's the unfortunate case with all 2+1 CP maps.
 

Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
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I ran around for a bit in the map and focused primarily on how it would work for engineers. Right along with that is how it would work for snipers, since the sight line concept is similar.

I think B and C will be really hard to defend with sentries. I forgot to take an overhead map, but I'll explain the best I can. At B there are only 3 spots that can cover the control point. One is by the fence right next to the blue spawn exit, which will be very hard to defend (very good spot to surprise with, though). One is next to the rock by the tunnel to C, which cannot reach beyond the point and would get demolished easily by demomen and soldiers. And right on the CP.

I think you could solve this by expanding the hole over the CP so a sentry placed above can cover the entire point. You'll have to expand the building a bit which would probably require moving out the side wall of the map, but I think it's the easiest solution.

A is a bit better for sentries. You can place them on the stairs behind the CP, on top of the small building in front of the CP (not sure if this was intended, but it's going to be lots of fun since it can cover a blue spawn exit and paths to both B and C). There's also a few other spots that will work ok.

One thing I would recommend thinking about is putting a ledge of some sort in the corner over the large metal. This would be an interesting sentry location and would be excellent for snipers looking toward the right blue spawn exit.

To be honest, while I can see how C will be very pretty, I'm not sure it'll play all that well. There's far less vertical play than gravel pit in this area and it's quite a bit smaller. I think the area needs to be expanded out and the building itself needs to be made larger. I'd suggest adding a third story and moving the CP to the second floor, with access to the bottom floor still possible... perhaps level 2 would be a balcony over the bottom and then level 3 would be catwalks where sentries could be placed and demomen/soldiers/heavies could sit? I just think that as it is right now a single uber will completely clear that area.

The amount of metal and health around the map seems very well thought out, so kudos on that. Hopefully playtesting will reveal that those won't require much change. :)

Finally, I noticed that your paths between the areas are relatively close together compared to maps like Gravel Pit. I'm sure you guys were planning it, but you'll really need to make sure each section looks slightly different than the others and that the path entrances between the areas reflect that somehow as well. Obviously the blue spawn areas will be more industrial, but I'd also suggest making A, B, and C varied a small amount as well. Of course, just making the path between A and B different enough might work fine as well since it would stand out from the paths to C. Just something to keep in mind.

HTH. :)

EDIT: I think to make the map feel more vertical than it actually is you could make the blue spawn a two story building as well and expand that part out a bit. I think attacker spawns are often overlooked a bit (except in rare instances like Hoodoo stage 1 ;)), so some height there might feel kind of fun.
 
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YM

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Ok, revisited the skybox again, much happier with it this time around:

I've had to almost completely repaint the whole thing to remove some pretty dire colour banding from the fact I've warped the colours so much, whilst painting over all the yucky lines I also tweaked the clouds, made some more intense painted one out and added one or two more.

Thanks for your comments chilly :thumbup1:
 
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Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
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We'll be playtesting this at tf.yinyarr.com in about 10 minutes if anyone wants to come on. We have a good amount of people coming already.
 

MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
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ha...I think this is a perfect example of that thread that claimed the more well known mappers get more response...3 pages in 2 days...for an a1 XD
granted a large number of the post aren't exactly "feedback"
...and im not criticizing anyone, this happens to be one of few wips ive checked in a long while

now im going to go and download the map for no express reason and wander around in it...despite that i never do that
 

drunkie

L1: Registered
Jul 21, 2008
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ha...I think this is a perfect example of that thread that claimed the more well known mappers get more response...3 pages in 2 days...for an a1 XD
granted a large number of the post aren't exactly "feedback"
...and im not criticizing anyone, this happens to be one of few wips ive checked in a long while

now im going to go and download the map for no express reason and wander around in it...despite that i never do that

I think it more has to do with they posted screen shots with custom content. When I see custom art it always grabs my attention more then Alpine Map #195.

@Youme, That sky looks fucking great, I cant wait to see how it is in game.
 

MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
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meh, I pointedly ignore visuals on most maps, on that note though the sky isn't nearly as painful as people have built it up to be, Its mostly the sharp contrast between the straight grey walls and the sky, when the displacements are made and a 3d skybox is constructed it will be much less noticeable...

anyways...my look at gameplay...
I really do not like the look of b, obviously the concept is, that in order to cap the point you need to first gain control of another area, while still allowing you the option of a sneak capture if the red team is inattentive. The only feasible places to place sentries that are directly guarding the point is precisely where the ammo is right now (which is bad because then the engies can't use the ammo if they build there) and even there the sentries will be unable to see part of the point, but any closer to the edge will instantly make them fodder for virtually any class. It seems to me that personally this point will be much harder to defend then gravelpit...especially if sentries are the main method of defending. As for A...well...let me put it this way, I intend to plant myself on the path from A to B, choose sniper and fire ceaselessly at anyone who dares to step on the point. Aside from that it has much more potential for sentries in relation to the only way up, though an uber will decimate them every time.

Well...theres my gameplay feedback before ever playing a game, someone tell me how accurate i was, (I work saturday, and the saturday after that... :crying: )
 
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trainRiderJ

L5: Dapper Member
Mar 14, 2008
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I like youme's maps, but more importantly, I LOVE gravelpit. I posted the same exact message in cp_silvertrail, another gravelpit-style map, and even walked through the map on the TF2F servers with the author and another clan member.

Good pics and a game type I like are what grabs my attention.
 

Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
326
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ha...I think this is a perfect example of that thread that claimed the more well known mappers get more response...3 pages in 2 days...for an a1 XD granted a large number of the post aren't exactly "feedback"

It makes perfect sense. If a well known band releases an album it's going to get more attention than a brand new band, partially because of name familiarity and partially because they've proven that they're good at what they do.

You come across as bitter in both your posts and I'm not sure why, but hopefully they can make use of your feedback to improve the map.

CP B:
Youme and Nineaxis... I'm going to retract my comment about sentries not having good spots at B. We played 7-7 on the map tonight and I was able to make use of about 5 different sentry locations, moving my sentry after each wave of attackers. There are some really tricky spots. No, sentries won't hold out indefinitely, but I think two sentries guarding each other would work quite well, similar to Gravel Pit. I do think the opening should be made larger than the CP still so the sentries can be a little more protected and cover the point better. Also, on the back side of B (the side facing C), if you make the slope cut away from the edge of the map more sharply that will make another really nice sentry location.

CP A:
A was held for a brief while by a single sentry, so I think that area is pretty good. I like the area on the far left (when exiting blue's spawn) with the metal... it made a halfway decent forward base for me to drop a teleporter where people probably won't look that often. A small amount of cover in that area would be nice to assist with that, and to give spies an area to hide out. :)

CP C:
Definitely far too confined of an area. Right now it's going to be impossible for red to defend it against a semi-competent team. The area needs to be expanded out so the defenders have warning of incoming attacks and the building should be expanded to provide additional defensive cover.

Our CEVO member (one of the top demomen in TF2, regularly scrimmed with AI) suggested more height as well, since that's a key component of why competitive teams like Gravel Pit. It gives teams time to adjust to attacks, makes teams balance the tradeoff of rocket jumping vs the lower health, and makes for interesting air rocket, air grenade, and airblast battles. Take that as you will, but most of the players thought it needed more height as well.

I thought the total number of entrances into C seemed a bit much if you want to make it harder to defend than Gravel Pit. On GP teams know that the attackers will first come from B, and will have two doorways right next to each other to defend. For comparison your paths between the points seem balanced and spread apart, which will make things hard on the defenders. I'd suggest one minor change that would simplify the area and make things a bit easier on red... combine the middle paths from A and B before they empty into C. The paths are right next to each other and exit really close to each other, but you'd cut the total area that a demoman/sentry would need to guard in half.

BLU Spawn:
My big complaint about the blue spawn is that when I build a teleporter entrance on one side half the team won't see it because of the way the exits are set up. I just said "teleporter to the right", but it goes beyond teleporters. I think teams that have a single setup area tend to be more organized than teams that split up. As a result I'd suggest moving the spawn building back to make a courtyard area in front of the building.

RED Spawn:
I'm not sure why, but it seems like the exits would be really easy to camp. You might want to add windows to those buildings or try protecting them in some way (raising them and moving them back perhaps?).

Other:
I don't mind the current skybox, but think the updated one in your post will be easier on the eyes. I think it'd be cool to see some lights turned on around the map, kind of like buildings right before the sun goes down. It might give certain areas an interesting feel.

Everyone thought the roofs of buildings should be accessible by demomen and soldiers. They're clipped off right now, which I think hurts those areas. Rooftops that are within easy RJ range should almost always be accessible, IMHO.

Finally, I was wrong about the metal and health. While the metal seems perfect to me, there was a serious lack of health around the map. This was pointed out by multiple people. It does put more importance on medics and dispensers, but health really helps a team defend an area better and you should seriously consider increasing them.

If you need pictures of anything I'm talking about, let me know. :)
 

laghlagh

L6: Sharp Member
Jul 15, 2008
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For some reason that sky reminds me of "The Lion King".
Looks great!
 

YM

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Dec 5, 2007
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ha...I think this is a perfect example of that thread that claimed the more well known mappers get more response...3 pages in 2 days...for an a1 XD
I know this happens, but its more than just the fact the map is made by a well known mapper, I've fueld the chat with screenshots and discussions over the last week, we set up a little game the other day on the T-S server allowing people in chat to actually play it, I've posted interesting screenshots here too, I've even started posting about it on the control point forums too to get even more feedback. My point is rather than making a post and saying "here is my map, kthxbai" we're continually adding new things to look at/take part in/comment on, so people are more interested.
Conclusion: jump up and down about your awesome stuff until people take note, if you've got previous awesome stuff, make sure they know about it first!

anyhow, thanks for your feedback chilly, I'm going to look again at C tonight but ultimately wait until after gameday before it's changed. Could you explain this a bit better?
CP B:
...Also, on the back side of B (the side facing C), if you make the slope cut away from the edge of the map more sharply that will make another really nice sentry location.
 

Chilly

L6: Sharp Member
May 3, 2008
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Could you explain this a bit better?

The green shows where the edge of the slope will be. The red X is a good sentry location, with the blue showing the great sight lines. It's still vulnerable from far away through the point, but since it's raised it would require someone to stop at the far end to perfectly aim their shots.

cpfurnacea10007ym5.jpg
 

MrAlBobo

L13: Stunning Member
Feb 20, 2008
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I know this happens, but its more than just the fact the map is made by a well known mapper, I've fueld the chat with screenshots and discussions over the last week, we set up a little game the other day on the T-S server allowing people in chat to actually play it, I've posted interesting screenshots here too, I've even started posting about it on the control point forums too to get even more feedback. My point is rather than making a post and saying "here is my map, kthxbai" we're continually adding new things to look at/take part in/comment on, so people are more interested.
Conclusion: jump up and down about your awesome stuff until people take note, if you've got previous awesome stuff, make sure they know about it first!

hmm...was not aware you were posting things in other places, I did happen to scan the pictures posted here to see if anything extra was given in comparison to other threads, but meh, its not really important...I just happened to find it funny how well this thread supported that claim awhile back

Ill freely admit it is an unavoidable thing...
and as for that bitter comment chilly made...I always sound bitter, usually i refer to it as cynical though
 

YM

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Dec 5, 2007
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OK so here's the proposed changes for _a2:
  • Increase cap times to closer to GP's (A/B longer, C faster)
  • Raise C up, open the building up more, remove the beams
  • Unify red's spawn into one building and move it slightly further from C
  • Reduce distances between A B and C if at all possible
  • More health kits, mainly small and medium
  • Add A B and C indicators on HUD (they're so natural in GP I forgot they were even there!)
  • Add A and B signs infront of the setup gates rather than just behind them (forgot you wouldn't be able to see them in set up time)
  • Extend the B building slightly providing more space inside and underneath as well as opening up the windows to allow shooting in/out easier
  • Opend up B's roof to be rocket jumped onto.
  • Adjust spawn timers so red take slightly longer and blu slightly less (coupled with extended cap timers should have a good effect on balance)
  • Increase light in all indoor areas.

Anything else anyone want to add?
 

Ida

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Jan 6, 2008
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There's not a lot going on vertically. I missed having a height advantage as a Spy (the only place where I was really able to exploit the height was on a rock by C), since it's important to certain classes to be able to hop around on things and take out people from above. Perhaps allow people to easily get on top of the tiny buildings scattered around B, for example. In short, it's all very horizontal.
 

YM

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Perhaps allow people to easily get on top of the tiny buildings scattered around B, for example. In short, it's all very horizontal.

With the newly accesable roof on B there will be more vertical activity going on there and hopefully with one of the other tweaks I made it should make some more high areas accesable for at very least scouts if not all others with a crouch jump.
The new C also should have some of this.