Four stage payload map

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by YM, Oct 1, 2013.

  1. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    I have a plethora of questions on this topic.

    • Has anyone ever done one? (Point me in its direction)
    • What are your feelings on multi-staged maps?
    • What were your feelings on multi-staged maps when you started with TF2 (how have your feelings changed over the years?)
    • Would you expect the addition of an extra stage to decrease the length of each individual stage?
    • What do you think about a single capture point payload stage?
    • Are there any single capture point payload stages already? (point me in its direction)
     
  2. Berry

    aa Berry if you read this you're a nerd

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    I think three is a mighty fine number already, unless they're smaller stages, especially considering if you have too many stages, setup time will eat up actual playtime. Two seems too small, four seems too big (using the regular 2 caps per stage system).
     
  3. luxatile

    aa luxatile deer

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    • Has anyone ever done one? (Point me in its direction): dunno
    • What are your feelings on multi-staged maps?: I'm very fond of them. They give a good sense of progression when done right, and you get a lot of highs and lows, compared to a the continuous barraging fight of a single-stage. I also love them for the potential variety.
    • What were your feelings on multi-staged maps when you started with TF2 (how have your feelings changed over the years?): They haven't changed. I've always loved multi stage maps. That said, a lot of older multi-stage maps are extremely chokey (Dustbowl, Gold Rush, and indeed Hoodoo) and I think that's a format pretty much every TF2 player has grown weary of.
    • Would you expect the addition of an extra stage to decrease the length of each individual stage?: I kind of would. I don't see much potential of decreasing the length of a given stage. They tend to be pretty short as is.
    • What do you think about a single capture point payload stage?: I think that's a cool idea. I've been thinking of something like this myself. Could work pretty well if it had a layout/concept similar to Thunder Mountain's last, or Hightower - that is, just one big area with no chokes.
    • Are there any single capture point payload stages already? (point me in its direction): dunno

    I'm not sure what a fourth stage would add to a map, to be honest. 3 is a natural number - there's a beginning, a middle, and an end. Anything more would just be fluff.
     
  4. Egan

    aa Egan

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    My feelings on multi-staged maps is that people like action that never stops and multistage breaks that up. It does allow for some interesting starts which are always fun but doesn't really seem that necessary to me.

    When I started with TF2 I guess I played anything, but for maps like hydro it was hard to plan for what was coming up because you only found out seconds before the game started. Nowadays I guess I see them as buffer points to split ideas for stages. I guess it really shouldn't matter too much because the in-between sections of long stage maps like badwater are kinda like the in-betweens for maps like goldrush. (Or maybe they are radically different? I haven't really looked into it).

    I'd expect the length to go down literally because you'll run out of hammer space/entities. But if you could work with that I guess, yeah, it should go down in length. There seems to be times where I'll play goldrush and I'll get bored of pushing the cart halfway through stage 3 and it becomes a chore to play.

    For the single-capture-point-payload-stage I think it sounds boring because if you look at badwater it occasionally happens to be that half of Blue is fighting Red and half of Blue is pushing the cart, and the roles stay the same for most of the round. So there would be half your team who never touched the cart but ended up winning. For those players they might not feel important (although they actually are).


    There are maps like pl_borneo where the area just after the tunnel section is just completely dominated by Blue. Where Red holds them off from the tunnel section for so long and when they finally get all destroyed they can't possibly respawn in time to defend the upcoming area. So parts like that I guess one might think could be made into a second stage (since the forward spawn is essentially 20ft behind it) but I think it would negatively affect the mentality of Blue. Where they wouldn't be able to feel like they've accomplished that marvelous feat where they get to walk through the tunnel each time they respawn (if only for a brief moment).

    I think I read in a previous thread somewhere (I'm thinking by either Axio or Frozen) that the setup stage for large payload maps or any defend maps is key, where Red has to walk through all their defenses so they know where everything is and can prepare for it when it comes to that. (Like where is the health/ammo, where is the sentry nest, where is the counter to that sentry nest, etc).
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
  5. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    Egan can you just clarify for me what thought triggered your last paragraph.
     
  6. Egan

    aa Egan

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    Walking through defense areas before they're used probably stemmed from the pl_borneo tunnel thought, but is more related to when I said "for maps like hydro it was hard to plan for what was coming up because you only found out seconds before the game started". Even in 3 stage capture point maps like cp_fen where Red makes the long haul all the way to first point, and that entire time they're doing so they're learning the layout and the flow of the map, just in reverse. (And you have more than enough time to do so in most maps of the style). I guess the same thing happens on the smaller multi-staged maps, but just to a lesser extent. (Or in goldrush's case to just the first point, no one bothers to go through the flanks of the second point where they spawn because it's just a waste of time).

    You can probably look more into this by looking at the current cp_fen C exit -> B -> A entrance routes, but nevermind the A point geometry cause he's changing that. (Like look at the way red gets choices as opposed to the way goldrush eliminates those choices for red (height for blue focusing red down a tunnel)). I donno if these things are necessary in a map but I do feel like I'm more prepared to defend the area when I've walked through it before the round has started.
     
  7. Grizzly Berry

    aa Grizzly Berry

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    • What are your feelings on multi-staged maps?:
      I like them. It's refreshing to not have to grind on one area of a map for an extended period of time.


      [*]What were your feelings on multi-staged maps when you started with TF2 (how have your feelings changed over the years?):
      I was confused when I first started. "I thought this was Dustbowl?" Until I familiar with the system, I mixed stages up, but once I figured it all out, I never had a problem.


      [*]Would you expect the addition of an extra stage to decrease the length of each individual stage?:
      Yes.


      [*]What do you think about a single capture point payload stage?:

      As in you push from beginning to end, or there's one point in between? Either way, I wouldn't mind it. Like Egan mentioned though, it would split the team for the entire match.
     
  8. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    i dont think anyone has done a 4+ stage map of any kind

    multi stage maps just interrupt the fun i think. and i think valve picked up on that idea. they haven't put out a multi stage map since pipeline (not counting nightfall), and before that it was goldrush/dustbowl. i guess it's partly technical since you cant have more than 8 points in a map, but i think they just clued into the fact that interrupting gameplay a lot isn't really fun or rewarding; the reward spike keeps occurring but then ending suddenly rather than just continuing, like it does on badwater, upward, etc.

    pl_crag is a single stage map with 2 or 3 points i think. otherwise i cant think of any old payload maps that have one point in them... except maybe when godslayer (?) was making a multi stage pl and the first stage was one point. never finished tho

    i think it'd be more interesting to make a really long payload map. like there's this http://forums.tf2maps.net/showthread.php?t=13403 which makes goldrush one stage. seba was trying to do this for a long time but i think he gave up idk
     
  9. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    Just wanted to toss out there that multi stage maps are the only ones that can have more than 8 because you can skirt around the limit with clever reuse of points. Even easier with linear non-repeatable stages.

    That said, more stages to the extent you would need more than 8 points (you could do 4 stages easily) would get really long. I would definitely expect shorter stages in such a case, and players would end up wondering when the hell it ends.

    Four stages would be manageable I think. Not sure about expecting them to be shorter since that would depend on how you define it. Goldrush 3 is an extra point longer... a 4 stage map could be the same linear length as Goldrush as well as the same 7 points.
    Length would certainly depend on defensibility. If it drags on it could be too long for players even if the physical size is acceptable.

    However, defensibility is also a good reason against having more than 3 stages (perhaps even any) because of the balance that needs to be struck to make them fair.
    If you consider a three stage map as having four victory "states" (red win at 1, red win at 2, red win at 3, red loss at three) it is already a tricky matter to make sure they are progressively more difficult while maintaining an overall "fair" victory balance between red and blue.
    Adding in another stage will further complicate the issue and might end up making one or more stages seem superfluous.

    Personal opinion... I like multi-stage maps. I have since TFC (though dustbowl was downright awful there. grenades for everyone AND single exit route?). It feels like more significant progress is made when assaulting, defending feels like another chance if something fell apart, and both sides get a momentary breather.
     
  10. Pocket

    aa Pocket func_croc

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    Personally I kind of feel like multistage as a concept is obsolete and unnecessary. It makes the rounds run long, so you can't be sure both teams will even get a chance to play a full round before the map time runs out (or, if it's set up to ensure that they do, that the map will run way past the time limit). It gives BLU a win condition that doesn't actually end the round, so it's like the "roll again" in a board game except the board only has three or four spaces on it.

    In the case of payload, it also forces you to assume that the cart somehow gets moved between stages. This is especially egregious in Thunder Mountain, where they don't even try to explain how the stages connect to each other and the end point of the first two stages are somehow a safe zone despite being in the middle of RED's base.
     
  11. LeSwordfish

    aa LeSwordfish semi-trained quasi-professional

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    Why? What does a fourth stage add to a map?

    A pl map with four one-point stages could be interesting I guess.
     
  12. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    I'm the one asking questions here. Stay out of my territory
    [​IMG]
     
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  13. RaVaGe

    aa RaVaGe

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    IMO multi stages shouldn't be more high than 3, because the span time between each stages will be pretty short if you want 4 stages, I don't like to only attack or defend on a map, the scorepanel in tf2 is meant to be played on both teams. Then with 4 stage I imagine that the first stage will be a steamroll for the attackers, in another word, a useless stage because you know you can't defend on it.

    I love multi stages, because it's always way more easy to create your defences, in badwater, the engineer often put his sentry 2 points behind, because he don't have enough time to put his sentry where the game actually plays.
     
  14. Kill_the_Bug

    Kill_the_Bug L14: Epic Member

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    Has anyone ever done one? (Point me in its direction)


    Shame on all of you for not remembering my outstanding achievement of pl_goldheist_canyon_final_v1.

    It's 4 stages long and to get around the 8 cap point limit - I added in some extra game play items - give it a shot and try it out.

    Here is the final version:
    http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=5311

    I also did this version - worked fine until MvM broke the key sequence in the 2nd stage:

    http://tf2.gamebanana.com/maps/167583

    What are your feelings on multi-staged maps?

    It depends on the size of the map - small maps - no stages period.

    Large maps - they definitely are needed - it gives players a chance to breathe between the action or else you want them to have run a marathon and feel exhausted after it's all over.​

    What were your feelings on multi-staged maps when you started with TF2 (how have your feelings changed over the years?)
    No changes based on the above.

    Would you expect the addition of an extra stage to decrease the length of each individual stage?

    Depends on the feeling you want to achieve - goldhiest is HUGE but not as huge as one of the original versions still found here(I think it's a single stage - haven't played it in years):
    http://tf2.gamebanana.com/maps/162681

    What do you think about a single capture point payload stage? Are there any single capture point payload stages already? (point me in its direction)

    A very tricky project to do - you would have to allow enough time for combat. A suggestion for this style of game play would be to have a countdown - Red Terrorists have Armed the Nuclear Device - say 15-20 mins. Blue has the Key to disarm it and has to get it there before it blows up. Instead of the boom at the end Blue saves the day - if they fail the countdown triggers a very fast fade to white screen effect happening. Also this type of game would have to have VERY LIMITED choke points. They would have some but not so many points that red could constantly kill blue's chance of winning and would need lots of flanking routes.​
     
  15. UKCS-Alias

    aa UKCS-Alias Mann vs Machine... or... Mapper vs Meta?

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    Has anyone ever done one? (Point me in its direction)
    Only in payload race style (and in that case it was me who did that with tc_ramparts). Although that didnt turn out well.
    What are your feelings on multi-staged maps?
    That depends on how they are made. The generaly problem i see is that most of the time you only see 1 stage. That is because the last cp deadlocks too easy on larger pub servers (insta respawn making it even worse)
    What were your feelings on multi-staged maps when you started with TF2 (how have your feelings changed over the years?)
    I think goldrush was a perfect example of how not to do it. And sadly there havent been many after it that made it play well. Mainly also because of the server setup being a problem. Respawn times are hated by many pubs and anything that shortens them is making a stage harder to beat.
    Would you expect the addition of an extra stage to decrease the length of each individual stage?
    That still depends on how easy it is to complete a round, i dont care if its 2 cps a round as long as beating the first 2 stages wouldnt be too hard.
    What do you think about a single capture point payload stage?
    Well, the reason i think a 2nd cp belongs in a stage is because a bad team has a shorter moment of being steamrolled during the attack. But other than that it doesnt add anything good.
    Are there any single capture point payload stages already? (point me in its direction)
    Only in payload race, although thats just 1 cp per team.

    The way i however think it could work is if you make the 2nd cp in each stage closer to the blue team so the red team gets a little longer walk and the blue a little shorter. This is ideal in compensating reduced respawn times while with stock times it wont matter as you can balance them anyway.
    And maybe you could even do a layout like 2,1,1,3 in the ammount of cps. Although stage 2 and 3 in this case probably have a longer initial time.

    And maybe even invent a new system. What if you for example add some randomness in the 2nd stage but still force them to beat both?
    Stage 1, Stage 2a, Stage 2b, Stage 3.
    For this you can even add 2 carts for the blue team (although i think that for later stages the hud would mess up on this as it requires the plr hud)

    I see plenty of options and possible solutions to the issues that current multistage payload maps many times have.
     
  16. tyler

    aa tyler snail prince, master of a ruined tower

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    perhaps there is a
    reason no one remembers
     
  17. Kill_the_Bug

    Kill_the_Bug L14: Epic Member

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    I don't know about that - stats say it's been played over 300 times and there's one Hong Kong server that seems to love it:p

    But the main question was has anyone made one - and the answer is yes - I have.
     
  18. Fish 2.0

    Fish 2.0 L6: Sharp Member

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    i thanked u becuz i appreciate ur jke xDDD

    Do it, you can always remove a stage if you want to.