[Contest Entry] pl_bigbear

Discussion in 'WIP (Work in Progress)' started by bob+M|M+, Nov 14, 2008.

  1. bob+M|M+

    bob+M|M+ L6: Sharp Member

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    pl_bigbear


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    Map: pl_bigbear
    Current version: a1b
    Date: Nov 14, 2008
    Download: http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=790

    Changes: Included missing track models.

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    Older Versions: a1
    Date: Nov 14, 2008
    Download: http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=788

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    Map Discription
    My goal for this map is to create a linear gameplay that revolves around ubers taking down key defensive spots.
    This map is very engineer friendly, for both offense and defense, so constant offensive ubers will be vital in escorting the bomb to victory.




    Knowing how fickle the art of level design can be, I will probably be changing the layout of the map many times, so please leave any feedback conerning the gameplay.


    Screenshots:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]



    About the Map:
    The name Big Bear is inspired from the alpine city Big Bear, California.



    Special thanks to:

    III_Demon for custom track pieces
    VelvetFistIronGlove for custom Alpine rocks
    GarbageMan for payload cart and map setup prefab


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    FEEDBACK INSTRUCTIONS
    Please leave feedback regarding the gameplay. i.e. this area is too big, camping issues, spawn rooms etc.. I am open to making major changes in the map.

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    Last edited: Nov 15, 2008
  2. Chilly

    Chilly L6: Sharp Member

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    Good start, but lots of issues, including a couple of models that weren't pakrat'd into the bsp (I think III_Demon's models) as well as your cubemaps. Make sure you build your cubemaps. It's hard to give feedback until after a playtest, which we'll do, but I'll wait to load it onto the server until that model is in there since it's display two big ERRORS right now.

    I have lots of screenshots for fixing/improvements/suggestions that I'll post in a bit.
     
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  3. Chilly

    Chilly L6: Sharp Member

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    Build your cubemaps. Also, it looks like it just drops off or that there's a path dropping off over the edge. Add a couple of trees really low to make it look like the path is going over.

    [​IMG]

    This area bothers me. There's just too much going on. Although the grate over the grass looks nice, grass wouldn't normally grow under there. It's also weird since the cart would have started under the grate somehow. To make it look more natural, remove the grate and add steps at each doorway. Or make the tracks start on the other side of the little opening and change the grass below into something else, like stones.

    [​IMG]

    Big walls like this need more detail. Add a lightpost on each corner and/or some decorations on the walls. Scatter some props below, like barrels in certain areas or a cow prop. :)

    [​IMG]

    It feels like you should be able to hop over this fence to that area. I'd suggest removing the short fence and moving the building up to that point. Then run a full height chain link fence across that area so it's obvious people can't go in there.

    [​IMG]

    Obviously it's an alpha, so I'll just quickly mention this. Your textures aren't aligning/matching.

    [​IMG]

    Same in this one, but this part also needs some more detail. That's not a giant olive... it's a barrel. ;)

    [​IMG]

    This looks out of place. Is something to be on top of it?

    [​IMG]

    Hello tree poking through wood. :)

    [​IMG]

    Hello nodraw. :) Also, you might want to adjust where the logs are sitting, since on one end they go through the cement and on the other they end with nothing supporting them. I'd add a small ledge underneath on the upper side and raise them a few inches so the lower end looks right. Nitpicking. :)

    [​IMG]

    Another area that looks accessible, but isn't. You could either make it part of the building like I've drawn, or make it really obvious that people can't get over there. The small access door confuses it more, but I'm guessing you have a plan for detailing that more. If not, get rid of it. :)

    [​IMG]

    Giant walls need details to break them up. I've added a hanging light fixture, large window, and bench. Some lockers along the right wall would work too. Same for the wall opposite this one. A hot tub would be nice in here. ;)

    [​IMG]

    Can people somehow get up there? It just feels weird. It'd be an awesome forward base for the attackers if you could access it from the right, and then have a hole in the bottom that drops onto the tracks. Otherwise it needs something to make it fit in more.

    [​IMG]

    Missing track models. :)

    [​IMG]

    Not sure if you meant to allow players up here, but they can get there via the ledge on the opposite side. Personally, I like areas like this. Might want to look at what's going on with that window too... didn't notice anything in-game, but the perspective looks odd in the image.

    [​IMG]

    I like the size of this area for a final point. It just needs more architecture. Add some additional rooflines, buildings, balconies, etc. Some additional height in this area would make it fun to defend, so if you add 2 story structures or roofs, try making them accessible somehow.

    [​IMG]

    Overall a good start. Looking forward to testing it with a group once that model is fixed. :D
     
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  4. bob+M|M+

    bob+M|M+ L6: Sharp Member

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    wow thanks for the hasty feedback Chilly, I'll definitely consider all those things.

    I've updated the map to version a1b to include the missing ERROR models and (hopefully) the cubemaps.

    The order is buildcubemaps THEN pakrat right? Also I compiled the map in bsp:normal vis:fast rad:fast settings so do I still need to do the WHOLE buildcubemaps process (instead of simply buildcubemaps in console), because I only typed buildcubemaps
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2008
  5. Chilly

    Chilly L6: Sharp Member

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    You need to have a cubemap in your map. Generally you'll drop one in each of the darker areas of your map (inside rooms) and around the map near reflective surfaces (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Then you need to buildcubemaps once. If you compile in HDR mode (which you should for visual reasons), then you'll need to buildcubemaps twice... once for LDR and once for HDR. There's a set of steps in the Valve mapping wiki that Google should turn up if you search for "buildcubemaps".

    I'm not sure that the steps for pakrat and building cubemaps matter. One of the experienced mappers will be able to help you more with that.
     
  6. Galago

    Galago L2: Junior Member

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    Your big thing on this map is the Sentry/Uber thing, which is cool and all... but I'm really liking this (from the SS, anyway) as a good spy map. I'll tell you more tomorrow when I get to playtest it.
     
  7. Chilly

    Chilly L6: Sharp Member

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    Played this with a handful of people. Your cubemaps still aren't fixed. Place a cubemap inside the spawn room. I'm pretty sure you'll need to build your cubemaps in both HDR and LDR since some people saw the purple checkerboard and others didn't.

    As for the gameplay it went pretty well. We all agreed you need more health around the map but otherwise I listed most of the issues before. :)
     
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  8. bob+M|M+

    bob+M|M+ L6: Sharp Member

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    I'll be sure to fix the cubemaps next time. Thanks for testing.

    I've updated the original post to include feedback instructions. Major reconstructions will have priority over details right now.
     
  9. DarkNoghri

    DarkNoghri L1: Registered

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    [​IMG]
    This rainspout thing outside of the first red spawn (I think) is glitchy.

    [​IMG]
    Nineaxis hax.

    Overall, I like this map. Very alpine (need moar alpinez). Flow's fairly good. I like defending as a heavy, but people keep getting behind me somehow. I need time to learn it.
     
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  10. TheDarkerSideofYourShadow

    TheDarkerSideofYourShadow L10: Glamorous Member

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    I also liked it (except when Dark was defending as heavy) :-D. The only suggestion I can make is to remove the arrow that points to the left for Blu (straight out of their spawn) when the arrow that points to the short cut doors comes up. I saw several people go that way, when they could have saved time going the proper way.
     
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  11. Nineaxis

    aa Nineaxis Quack Doctor

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    :thumbup: That's why my true name is Ninehacksez.

    A soldier generously launched my poor sniper self onto a roof to the left of that turn right before the third point, where the arrow sign is, and I fell back there.
     
  12. luxatile

    aa luxatile deer

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    This was a very fun map, but as I told you yesterday, it needs a ton of clipping when it comes to the out of bounds areas.

    [​IMG]
    I was easily able to get up here as a Soldier, with one or two rocket jumps. I could jump further along the yellow path without trouble, and even behind the RED spawn. These rooftops are so high up that you can just put some giant clip brushes up there.

    While we're on the subject of clipping: Near the start, there's a small roof that you should be able to get up to (and far beyond) with a rocket jump or sticky jump, but it's blocked. That just seems wrong, you should probably unblock it.

    The last point seemed a bit too easy to take. It looked like RED didn't really get to put up a proper defense before it was over.

    [​IMG]
    I know both of these arrows point to useable paths, but they're a bit confusing. Here's an idea: Have the left arrow stay there until the path to the right opens, at which point there should be no reason to go to the left anymore. When that happens, make the left arrow disappear and make the right arrow appear, à la Badwater.
     
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    Last edited: Nov 16, 2008
  13. FLOOR_MASTER

    FLOOR_MASTER L3: Member

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    We've tried a couple of rounds of a1b. The layout's very straightforward with lots of opportunities for BLU/RED to battle along side the cart in obvious and intuitive positions. Everyone enjoyed it. We'll definitely be playing more of this in the coming days. Here are some very minor suggestions:

    BLU's initial spawn exits all filter out into the same area. You might consider moving one of the exits as shown:
    [​IMG]

    I think BLU's movement around the final point was somewhat constricted. It'd help tremendously if the following path were opened:
    [​IMG]

    There were many areas where people were able to jump up and access areas that should be off limits. e.g.:
    [​IMG]

    (Sorry it's rather vague, but hopefully you can check your map source and located these areas easily)
     
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  14. bob+M|M+

    bob+M|M+ L6: Sharp Member

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    Thanks for the feedback guys. I will be doing a major change on the first half of the first area, and around the choke points of the 2nd and 3rd area. I hope to get the next version done by the end of the month. I'll make sure all the playerclipping is polished as well.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2008
  15. luxatile

    aa luxatile deer

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    Just for clarity: What I said here...

    ...is the one above FLOOR_MASTER's suggested exit. (Which I agree with, btw. I'm not a fan of BLU's somewhat awkward spawn exits)
     
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  16. FLOOR_MASTER

    FLOOR_MASTER L3: Member

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    From further testing, one area near the first area in the map seems to give RED an unfair advantage. It's a wooden elevated platform that RED can build sentries on and camp the cart. It's recessed a bit making it hard for BLU to approach it without being repelled by sentries/explosives. I'll take a screenshot of the exact area later, but it's sort of to the right of the 1st screenshot I posted above.

    Nothing else has popped out as a major balance issue yet, but I'll continue to run tests.
     
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  17. FLOOR_MASTER

    FLOOR_MASTER L3: Member

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    Here's the area I mentioned:

    [​IMG]
     
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  18. bob+M|M+

    bob+M|M+ L6: Sharp Member

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    I really appreciate the feedback. I'm actually scrapping about 80% of the map with a completely new design, but I've been keeping in mind all the feedback you and everyone else has given, not just from my map, but from all the WIPs here on tf2maps.net. I've learned a lot from your invaluable advice, and it will show in my new design. I plan on getting this next version out ~2 weeks from now.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2008
  19. bob+M|M+

    bob+M|M+ L6: Sharp Member

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    Made some good progress on the first area the last few days. I'm pretty much making an entire new map, and just pulling a few parts from my previous design. I'll probably go straight to beta on this one. Not enough time to do the alpha -> beta -> final design with only ~1 month left.

    Some Pictures:

    [​IMG]

    ^ love those alpine logs Buzzy, thanks for the upload.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2008
  20. TheDarkerSideofYourShadow

    TheDarkerSideofYourShadow L10: Glamorous Member

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    wow, that is such a great idea with the pine trees. Mind if I use that a bit? :-D