Consolidated List

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by DrHaphazard, Jan 29, 2008.

  1. DrHaphazard

    DrHaphazard L5: Dapper Member

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    Edit: I apologize for leaving this thread out in the lurch, I became very busy all of a sudden. I have revised the list as seen below. I have included the removed items in my post on page 3 and the reason i took it out. I will also be working on that darn letter which i thought I would have done a week ago.

    -----

    Sorry for creating a second post on the matter, especially after the first one has been stickied, but I thought this would be the best way to do this. Allow a fresh start for this editted list. Now it hasnt been editted too much, the language would need to be unified better for a real one. Mainly I want to make sure we dont have any bogus stuff on our list. I have numbered each item so that people can easily refer to them.

    As always theres some suggestions at the end that dont seem to fit the other categories. I may not realize that they can fit in a category so please tell me.

    CTF

    1. Allow CTF return timer to be changed in Hammer
    2. Create a speed penalty variable for all flags so player can be slowed/sped up. Preferably a percentage of normal speed.
    3. Fix the multiple flag problem (one flag carrier can carry an infite number of his team's flag.)
    4. Allow for CTF maps to have a Setup Time and allow each team to place the intel at a certain point in the map before the match begins
    5. I would also like to see CTF scoring based upon flag possession / time

    FILTERS

    6. Allow a way to filter player classes
    7. Allow a way to filter weapon damage
    8. filter_activator_name appears to be broken for TF
    9. Allow a way to filter out flag carriers

    SCORING

    10. Ability to set cap limit in hammer (could be overwritten server side)
    11. Allow for other scoring systems than CP/CTF, such as a gradual scoring system, that can be displayed in the HUD
    12. A way to modify/control the text displayed during a round win. (e.g. "BLU captured the intelligence 3 times" and "RED successfully defended until time ran out")
    13. A more direct way to manupulate team score. Having to tie a game_score entity to a trigger_multiple with a filter_activator_tfteam is awkward and leads to some unavoidable bugs.
    14. fix the game_score entity (I haven't personally tested this, but I've read that it does not have the ability to alter individual player scores correctly, only team scores. Please tell me if that is incorrect, I really wanted to use this entity for custom objective rewards in maps.)


    HUD

    15. The option for turning OFF any auto-HUD stuff that the mapper doesnt need for his map
    16. Allow both CP HUD icons and CTF HUD icons on at the same time
    17. Custom HUD element entity. The entity lets you define where on the screen they go, and what is linked to them (state of an entity, compass position of an entity, etc) how many elements (1/2/3+ flag markers?)


    MODELS

    18. Add the ability to automatically embed custom models and textures into your map from Hammer (during the compile process, if possible)
    19. I would like model filtering by models used in TF2 - the option is there, but doesn't seem to work at all
    20. Incorporate the custom model compiler into either the XSI Mod Tool or Hammer. Having it as a seperate step between the two is inconvenient and confusing for many people

    ENVIRONMENT

    21. Ability to use fire as part of the environment in TF2 maps
    22. Ability to create brushes/entities that the pyro can light on fire
    23. Ability to create clip brushes that can block only certain projectiles.

    ENTITIES

    24. Give many of the entities (cap zones, flags, doors, any moving/togglable brush entity) something like the Goal# system TFC had, in which you could set certain things to only interact with certain other things.
    25. Make func_rotating work
    26. Make func_nogrenades work

    --------


    27. A way to limit classes (or disable altogether) and perhaps a way to change the limits as objectives are met
    28. A way to control max spawn time, not just min spawn time. Even if min spawn time is set to 5 seconds, ingame it still gets as large as 15 - 20 seconds randomly.
    29. A way to implement a hydro-style (territory control) overview map/window for non-TC game types.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 15, 2008
  2. YM

    aa YM LVL100 YM

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    Thats a good list. If we even manage to get a quarter of those we will have done well. :D
     
  3. DrHaphazard

    DrHaphazard L5: Dapper Member

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    Well I'll start with the editting questions:

    4. Should probably have specific examples as to how some CTF gamestyles are broken

    15. Aren't there fairly easy ways to increase someones score? I have not looked into this

    18. This suggestion sorta encompasses the first two, but I thought we could start of small and then point out that a fully customizable HUD would be ideal.

    26. Would love to have more details from Boojum on this one.

    27. Might be asking a bit much, since I am sure these entity limits apply to all valve games

    TEXTURES - I am nervous about including this section since of course we could always make the textures ourselves, even though its a laborious process. Don't wanna appear lazy. Is there a precedence for valve releasing texture packages just for mappers?

    42. Does this error apply to only TF2? If it happens for all games then valve is probably aware of it.
     
  4. Jive Turkey

    Jive Turkey L3: Member

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    If I'm not mistaken, the problem with the game_score entity is that it will increase one's kill count, but not one's actual score as seen in the tab menu. Thus there is no way to alter an individual's score other than the mechanics inherent to TF2's core gameplay. The entity is there, it just doesn't work properly.

    I have to agree with your sentiments on textures/assets. It is not something which is out of our control so it is not really something for which we need to petition Valve. Game content is the most expensive part of development and it would be foolish to ask Valve to pull their artists off of more important projects. There are plenty of idle artists out there. We should start looking for them. Besides, we'll surely get new textures with Valve's new map releases.

    As for things specific to Hammer and the editting tools, I just recently found this thread on the wiki which may or may not be more appropriate for such requests/suggestions.
     
  5. phatal

    phatal L6: Sharp Member

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    I'd like to see the shadowing fixed as mentioned in my thread here. 1 room with 1 light, but the props get their shadowing from an EXTERIOR light_env and nothing from the light in the room with the prop.
     
  6. TheBladeRoden

    TheBladeRoden L7: Fancy Member

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    34. Drop Hammer and look into using Blender instead

    might be a bit demanding
     
  7. Haas

    Haas Guest

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    maybe split it into addons wanted and bug fixes because de bug fixes will have priority
    edit okey there no bug fixes then i mean small modifications and addons.
     
  8. dirtyminuth

    dirtyminuth L5: Dapper Member

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    I'd argue that we present a subset of this list that focuses on expanding TF2 gameplay options. This includes items 1-18, 26-29, 35-37, and 41. Many of the other items require significant investments in time and don't provide additional gameplay options (extra textures, entity limit, lighting preview expansion (env, smoothing), model scaling).

    If that's not agreeable, then divide our list into TF2 Gameplay Options, Development Process Improvements (e.g. integrated model compiling), and Content Requests.

    I'm just imagining Valve getting this huge list and thinking we're demanding too much. Instead, we should focus on what's most important (which I argue is expanding gameplay options).
     
  9. Jive Turkey

    Jive Turkey L3: Member

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    34: Yea, Hammer is a Constructive Solid Geometry modeller, whereas Blender is a Surface modeller from what I understand. They're fundamentally different approaches to 3D editting software.
     
  10. Armadillo of Doom

    aa Armadillo of Doom Group Founder, Lover of Pie

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    I've become really fond of this idea since I got it; a tool that will allow us to convert normal textures into the cell-shaded TF2 style. This would really help alleviate the issue of having a relatively small number of style choices.
     
  11. Sean of the Dead

    Sean of the Dead L3: Member

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    wtf?!?! u do u hate ladders?!?!!?
     
  12. DrHaphazard

    DrHaphazard L5: Dapper Member

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    OMG! I do hate ladders...heh i'll throw that in there.

    Well lookin at this list I am also a bit concerned we may be throwing too much at valve at one time. And I agree that we might wanna focus on those things that help expand gameplay options, i.e. the filters options, the CTF stuff and the ones that deal with other forms of scoring.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2008
  13. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    I'll try to get up a more detailed explanation of it. Complicated issue so something I need to think on and not just whip up a post... I think.

    Sean: Seeing as ladders were explicitly removed from the code for gameplay reasons by the devs, I'd find it highly unlikely they would put them back.
     
  14. Sean of the Dead

    Sean of the Dead L3: Member

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    dammit! y do they hate ladders? ther're so much better!
     
  15. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    You move slowly on them, cannot maneuver, they're bottle-necky... many of the same reasons they did not include any elevators in their maps.
     
  16. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    Naughty me, doubleposting and all, but I thought it'd be better than editing something this big into something that small... sooo...

    Two integral entities in TFC were info_tfgoal (and a brush-based version of this) and item_tfgoal.
    info_ was a rather generic entity, usable for map/gameplay logic, resupply bags (they had a model field), lots of stuff. item_ is essentially the same, except the it could be picked up and carried and had a few keyvalues related to that.
    Both of these had Goal# and GoalGroup# fields.

    Now... nearly every entity that did anything (all the brush-based entities, relays, the respawn protection turrets, spawn points) had the following criteria/action keys on them:
    Code:
    Team allowed to use goal
    Player class allowed to use goal
    Has item #
    Has item from group #
    Hasn't item from group #
    If item # has moved
    If item # hasn't moved
    If goal # active
    If goal # inactive
    If goal # removed (there were actually four states, active/inactive is different from removed/restored)
    If group # actived
    If group # inactive
    If group # removed
    If criteria fails activate #
    If all goals in group # active...
    ...activate goal #
    Activate goal #
    Inactivate goal #
    Remove goal #
    Restore goal #
    Activate group #
    Inactivate group #
    Remove group #
    Restore group #
    Item # to give
    Item # to remove from AP (activating player)
    Return item # if not carried
    (There was actually a way larger amount of keys in the bunch, but they don't pertain to this, though they are nice.)

    Probably around half of what this could do can be done by the I/O system, filter entities and logic entities now. But I think much of that was still more efficient with the goal system because every entity could do any gameplay function or criteria check by itself without having to forward the task to something else, and if you wanted a centralized entity for whatever reason, that was doable too.

    The complexity was probably prohibitive to newbies, but it allowed for literally any type of map you could dream up. I am sure this contributed to the vast amount of maps that were made for the game over the years. I had a couple hundred maps on my system and that was a drop in the pond. The biggest factor of having that many is they weren't all 3-4 styles of gameplay.

    Now to actually convert this into what I think is needed in TF2 while considering what can already be done in new Source methods...

    Item numbering and reference criteria on (many many) entities. Home/away, carried/not, carried by the person triggering? Sure you can do some of this with the item outputs we have, but with any number of things needing reference it becomes cluttered.
    Similar referencing for control point ownership. They already have index keys and groups, so those could be used.

    I think most of the other stuff I could say this stuff (including the other keys from the picture) would allow for has already been covered in the list (1,2,3,second half of 5,6,7,10,12,14,sorta 15).
     
  17. TheBladeRoden

    TheBladeRoden L7: Fancy Member

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    I also want that particle editor we were promised with the release of TF2.
     
  18. Snipergen

    Snipergen L13: Stunning Member

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    No stairs, no blender since that doesnt make sense. A better and user-friendly model compiler from valve itself would be better.
     
  19. MacNetron

    MacNetron L5: Dapper Member

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    Although the differences between Blender and Hammer might be greater then I first thought (something with faces against brushes), I still find -after using Hammer now for a couple of months and finally getting a hang of how Hammer wants me to use it- Hammer an inefficient tool.
     
  20. trackhed

    trackhed L3: Member

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    i've been called that before too