- Thread starter Zorb
- Start date
- Aug 2, 2021
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- 48
- Sep 10, 2016
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I booted up this map and noticed a few things that could become an issue during testing:
1) Both team's spawns only have one exit
As you can see here, you can literally snipe from RED's only spawn exit to BLU's only spawn exit.
More insidiously, all RED needs to do to lock BLU out of existing is to stand on the boat and spam into that exit. This is not great for BLU Scouts, Snipers and Spies, who can't handle spam.
This could be fairly simply solved by giving BLU another exit, like so:
They exit the side of the hold onto a boardwalk. RED can't spam this doorway easily from the top of the ship thanks to the fences above BLU's door. So, BLU Scouts, Snipers and Spies are gonna want to use this boardwalk route to get around the enemy team's spam classes and do what they have the most fun doing - fighting other Scouts, Snipers and Spies while trying to bully RED Engineers.
2) I was surprised to find that the water doesn't kill you.
It looks like it should. There's no reason to go down there; no health, no tactical advantage, and it's hard to get out to boot. May as well kill the players who get knocked in so they spend their time respawning instead of having to awkwardly swim over to a ramp in RED-controlled territory in hopes of getting out.
3) The A point is hard to notice.
These arrows represent what BLU will do when they manage to get out of their spawn door. They'll look at the stern, find nothing there - look left, find nothing there, then look right. When they look right, they'll go "Aha! I see a control point; that must be what we're meant to capture!"
But they can't capture it, because it's B, not A as they thought.
The only reason BLU would have to look behind them as they exit is if RED were standing right behind them, but RED probably won't do that, because all the health and ammo are on the stern or towards B.
Far better to put the control point on the stern, like you had originally considered.
4) RED doesn't have safe places to defend B from.
From anywhere on the deck of the ship, BLU can see literally all of the health that RED has access to, as well as their single spawn exit. Most maps like to put the health kits wherever BLU/RED have cover, because the spots with cover are the spots they're gonna retreat to, and when you retreat you wanna get healed up quickly so you can get back in the fight.
As it is now, it's trivially easy for BLU (once they push out of their spawn and kill RED) to push up to B, spam RED's spawn door and use the health to sustain themselves, thereby easily winning and in a really frustrating way.
A number of solutions could be employed here:
- Giving RED another spawn door
- Adding walls between the existing health positions and the ship
- Adding an entire new area between A and B which both blocks sightlines and stops BLU from taking the B area easily after a single push out of spawn
I would recommend doing either the first two or the last one.
5) The respawn times are very long.
Killbinding as a BLU player, I was shocked to see a 20 second respawn time. This indicates to me that you haven't sent any SetBlueTeamRespawnWaveTime outputs to the tf_gamerules, which means the default time of 10 seconds is used.
In A/D, 10 seconds is usually suitable for RED, but BLU taking that long to respawn means that if RED manages to get a team wipe even once, they can push really far forward, which makes it frustrating to attack because BLU wants to gain ground over time.
You can read up on how respawning works here: https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Respawn
And what values official maps use here: https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Respawn_times#Attack.2FDefend
6) This health and ammo is placed kinda weirdly.
While it looks almost like a player could jump to reach these, it seems like only a Scout, Soldier or Demoman can reach this health and ammo.
Quoting from scorpiouprising's "TF2 Mapping: Soldier" on https://nodraw.net/:
I hope all this criticism isn't too disheartening.
Honestly, there are some cool ideas in here, it's just that some work is needed to flesh them out so they flourish.
Everything I've criticised here just comes from inexperience, and inexperience is easily fixed by the passage of time.
1) Both team's spawns only have one exit
As you can see here, you can literally snipe from RED's only spawn exit to BLU's only spawn exit.
More insidiously, all RED needs to do to lock BLU out of existing is to stand on the boat and spam into that exit. This is not great for BLU Scouts, Snipers and Spies, who can't handle spam.
This could be fairly simply solved by giving BLU another exit, like so:
They exit the side of the hold onto a boardwalk. RED can't spam this doorway easily from the top of the ship thanks to the fences above BLU's door. So, BLU Scouts, Snipers and Spies are gonna want to use this boardwalk route to get around the enemy team's spam classes and do what they have the most fun doing - fighting other Scouts, Snipers and Spies while trying to bully RED Engineers.
2) I was surprised to find that the water doesn't kill you.
It looks like it should. There's no reason to go down there; no health, no tactical advantage, and it's hard to get out to boot. May as well kill the players who get knocked in so they spend their time respawning instead of having to awkwardly swim over to a ramp in RED-controlled territory in hopes of getting out.
3) The A point is hard to notice.
These arrows represent what BLU will do when they manage to get out of their spawn door. They'll look at the stern, find nothing there - look left, find nothing there, then look right. When they look right, they'll go "Aha! I see a control point; that must be what we're meant to capture!"
But they can't capture it, because it's B, not A as they thought.
The only reason BLU would have to look behind them as they exit is if RED were standing right behind them, but RED probably won't do that, because all the health and ammo are on the stern or towards B.
Far better to put the control point on the stern, like you had originally considered.
4) RED doesn't have safe places to defend B from.
From anywhere on the deck of the ship, BLU can see literally all of the health that RED has access to, as well as their single spawn exit. Most maps like to put the health kits wherever BLU/RED have cover, because the spots with cover are the spots they're gonna retreat to, and when you retreat you wanna get healed up quickly so you can get back in the fight.
As it is now, it's trivially easy for BLU (once they push out of their spawn and kill RED) to push up to B, spam RED's spawn door and use the health to sustain themselves, thereby easily winning and in a really frustrating way.
A number of solutions could be employed here:
- Giving RED another spawn door
- Adding walls between the existing health positions and the ship
- Adding an entire new area between A and B which both blocks sightlines and stops BLU from taking the B area easily after a single push out of spawn
I would recommend doing either the first two or the last one.
5) The respawn times are very long.
Killbinding as a BLU player, I was shocked to see a 20 second respawn time. This indicates to me that you haven't sent any SetBlueTeamRespawnWaveTime outputs to the tf_gamerules, which means the default time of 10 seconds is used.
In A/D, 10 seconds is usually suitable for RED, but BLU taking that long to respawn means that if RED manages to get a team wipe even once, they can push really far forward, which makes it frustrating to attack because BLU wants to gain ground over time.
You can read up on how respawning works here: https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Respawn
And what values official maps use here: https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Respawn_times#Attack.2FDefend
6) This health and ammo is placed kinda weirdly.
While it looks almost like a player could jump to reach these, it seems like only a Scout, Soldier or Demoman can reach this health and ammo.
Quoting from scorpiouprising's "TF2 Mapping: Soldier" on https://nodraw.net/:
With a full health in a place that only Soldiers can reach, it becomes too easy for Soldiers to just rocket jump to that full health whenever they're in danger and come back fully healed. They can also jump up once and then just stay there forever, being continually topped up by the health kit.
I hope all this criticism isn't too disheartening.
Honestly, there are some cool ideas in here, it's just that some work is needed to flesh them out so they flourish.
Everything I've criticised here just comes from inexperience, and inexperience is easily fixed by the passage of time.
- Aug 2, 2021
- 18
- 48
I booted up this map and noticed a few things that could become an issue during testing:
1) Both team's spawns only have one exit
As you can see here, you can literally snipe from RED's only spawn exit to BLU's only spawn exit.
More insidiously, all RED needs to do to lock BLU out of existing is to stand on the boat and spam into that exit. This is not great for BLU Scouts, Snipers and Spies, who can't handle spam.
This could be fairly simply solved by giving BLU another exit, like so:
They exit the side of the hold onto a boardwalk. RED can't spam this doorway easily from the top of the ship thanks to the fences above BLU's door. So, BLU Scouts, Snipers and Spies are gonna want to use this boardwalk route to get around the enemy team's spam classes and do what they have the most fun doing - fighting other Scouts, Snipers and Spies while trying to bully RED Engineers.
2) I was surprised to find that the water doesn't kill you.
It looks like it should. There's no reason to go down there; no health, no tactical advantage, and it's hard to get out to boot. May as well kill the players who get knocked in so they spend their time respawning instead of having to awkwardly swim over to a ramp in RED-controlled territory in hopes of getting out.
3) The A point is hard to notice.
These arrows represent what BLU will do when they manage to get out of their spawn door. They'll look at the stern, find nothing there - look left, find nothing there, then look right. When they look right, they'll go "Aha! I see a control point; that must be what we're meant to capture!"
But they can't capture it, because it's B, not A as they thought.
The only reason BLU would have to look behind them as they exit is if RED were standing right behind them, but RED probably won't do that, because all the health and ammo are on the stern or towards B.
Far better to put the control point on the stern, like you had originally considered.
4) RED doesn't have safe places to defend B from.
From anywhere on the deck of the ship, BLU can see literally all of the health that RED has access to, as well as their single spawn exit. Most maps like to put the health kits wherever BLU/RED have cover, because the spots with cover are the spots they're gonna retreat to, and when you retreat you wanna get healed up quickly so you can get back in the fight.
As it is now, it's trivially easy for BLU (once they push out of their spawn and kill RED) to push up to B, spam RED's spawn door and use the health to sustain themselves, thereby easily winning and in a really frustrating way.
A number of solutions could be employed here:
- Giving RED another spawn door
- Adding walls between the existing health positions and the ship
- Adding an entire new area between A and B which both blocks sightlines and stops BLU from taking the B area easily after a single push out of spawn
I would recommend doing either the first two or the last one.
5) The respawn times are very long.
Killbinding as a BLU player, I was shocked to see a 20 second respawn time. This indicates to me that you haven't sent any SetBlueTeamRespawnWaveTime outputs to the tf_gamerules, which means the default time of 10 seconds is used.
In A/D, 10 seconds is usually suitable for RED, but BLU taking that long to respawn means that if RED manages to get a team wipe even once, they can push really far forward, which makes it frustrating to attack because BLU wants to gain ground over time.
You can read up on how respawning works here: https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Respawn
And what values official maps use here: https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Respawn_times#Attack.2FDefend
6) This health and ammo is placed kinda weirdly.
While it looks almost like a player could jump to reach these, it seems like only a Scout, Soldier or Demoman can reach this health and ammo.
Quoting from scorpiouprising's "TF2 Mapping: Soldier" on https://nodraw.net/:
With a full health in a place that only Soldiers can reach, it becomes too easy for Soldiers to just rocket jump to that full health whenever they're in danger and come back fully healed. They can also jump up once and then just stay there forever, being continually topped up by the health kit.
I hope all this criticism isn't too disheartening.
Honestly, there are some cool ideas in here, it's just that some work is needed to flesh them out so they flourish.
Everything I've criticised here just comes from inexperience, and inexperience is easily fixed by the passage of time.
A lot of what you mentioned in the beginning were things I had at first but took out for clarity, like another boardwalk behind the boat and a cutout to sneak off the boat without going through the main deck (I'd also considered making the water kill, but thought these three things could be too conflicting; like what if a BLU member slips and dies trying to flank?)
I voted against putting the point on the stern because I felt it was too simplistic for BLU to reach, simply having to move forward enough. I do admit it might be confusing and will move it back, but will ultimately see how it is in playtests
I'll make the packs more discrete and limit their effectivity and also change respawn timers, these are functional things I should double check anyways
As for the weird ledge, I wanted to have a hard-to-reach spot for engis to make a nest in. I was doubting putting it in this soon but figured why not, but will probably remove them for being too out of place
Thanks for your advice!
- Aug 2, 2021
- 18
- 48
Added things based off early feedback, fixed some lighting and props
Oh and the water now kills
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Oh and the water now kills
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- Aug 2, 2021
- 18
- 48
Updated many facets to tackle RED's oppresive advantages
+ added dividing wall/gate between A and B
+ expanded the beach and added new flank route
+ expanded main exit for BLU, added new slip exit
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+ added dividing wall/gate between A and B
+ expanded the beach and added new flank route
+ expanded main exit for BLU, added new slip exit
Read the rest of this update entry...
- Aug 2, 2021
- 18
- 48
Added a new C point, still in its infancy however
Will see how it impacts the power balance between teams
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Will see how it impacts the power balance between teams
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- Aug 2, 2021
- 18
- 48
A is no longer on the ship as per popular demand, with a dramatically longer cap time in place of where B was before
C is now B and has more flank routes available
RED now only has one spawn, and no longer has a direct exit onto A
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C is now B and has more flank routes available
RED now only has one spawn, and no longer has a direct exit onto A
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- Aug 2, 2021
- 18
- 48
Added a whole new area to serve as a new B point, making the old area into a buffer zone between regions
Also added roofs, more health/ammo packs, and other things
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Also added roofs, more health/ammo packs, and other things
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- Aug 2, 2021
- 18
- 48
This update didn't change much structurally, but brought a lot more detail as I feel it's about time to focus on the theme of the map
Good news is the major sightline should be less of a problem now, major changes will still be made if need be
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Good news is the major sightline should be less of a problem now, major changes will still be made if need be
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- Aug 2, 2021
- 18
- 48
I felt like putting this here for some reason, so enjoy
Nothing else has changed from a6 really
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Nothing else has changed from a6 really
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