- Thread starter ibex
- Start date
A2:
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- Minor fixes here and there for props that were floating.
- Added a new dropdown room near the fallen tree to allow for easier rotation from the side to the point. Might add stairs if the dropdown doesn't give much advantage.
- Removed some skyboxing so let me know if you start getting fps issues as it is almost a box atm.
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A3:
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- Major geometry changes on the upper (red) half of the map
- Updates to clipping/block bullets to try and improve the general feel
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A4:
So looks like getting the balance right the first time around was a nice little fluke, however intentional my choices were in terms of health, height, and positioning. But let's try and wrap our heads around what changed, and therefore the changes I'm introducing in A$.
Here's hoping Adollar is better. Thanks for reading.
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- Can walk under the felled log now
- Shifted blu's spawn back 64u:
- Just a guestimate
- Opened up some geo on red's house to allow them to easily attack down onto the point:
- Shifted back the last train log carriage and adjusted a rock prop placement
- This should allow red to better use their house, but also give the further left hand route a new high position that doesn't require climbing the logs from red's side
- Adjusted/added props on red's right hand side to better provide cover and provide read-ability
So looks like getting the balance right the first time around was a nice little fluke, however intentional my choices were in terms of health, height, and positioning. But let's try and wrap our heads around what changed, and therefore the changes I'm introducing in A$.
Quick breakdown:
MC4_A1 and A2 were played for 18 rounds total with an even 9:9 split for RED/BLU wins. There were only minor geo changes in A2, with the creation of the dropdown room near the felled log.
A2:
A2's top down, with some quick annotations. The old buildings just don't logistically make much sense in terms of the train's angle through the map. However, the layout prompts red to move to the outer routes (yellow), rather than the building.
The rock (left hand red) especially encourages red to move left toward the log carriage for cover, creating their front line (dark red). The right hand flank is more open for discussion, but I think the ease of rotation around the tree (orange) allows for red to better keep the position and a more forward front line.
Another difference to note was it was far easier for red to spam onto the point with the geo around this stair and the medium ammo in the alcove of that sniper fence.
A3:
A3 was played for 9 rounds with a 1:8, red:blu win ratio.
Top down with more annotations. The whole upper building changed, and in extension most of the areas red can hold. The biggest weakness of which was red getting trapped in the house without any real advantages. While the position of the train did not change between the iterations, it became more of a nuisance for red to use as cover or height advantage. The left route also is more open to suggest that players can both move to the left or into the building, with the building being ultimately useless.
Also, the right hand route became harder to hold, and I think this was partially a fault of the building (again), but also because I removed the quick rotation between the left and right routes. While the right hand side never had much in the way of cover, simplifying the route also made it harder for red to escape fights.
And the building geo made it much harder to spam onto the point.
Amoney:
Top down with new intentions. So while I'm not returning to the intentions of pushing the left route, I'm hoping the new iteration of the building is more encouraging of fighting in the left route. Cover positions are marked in light red, and the quick rotation around the building in orange.
Hopefully both of these ideas contribute to more red advantage and the building being more worthwhile to be in.
And a bonus rock on the right route for cover and fun.
MC4_A1 and A2 were played for 18 rounds total with an even 9:9 split for RED/BLU wins. There were only minor geo changes in A2, with the creation of the dropdown room near the felled log.
A2:
A2's top down, with some quick annotations. The old buildings just don't logistically make much sense in terms of the train's angle through the map. However, the layout prompts red to move to the outer routes (yellow), rather than the building.
The rock (left hand red) especially encourages red to move left toward the log carriage for cover, creating their front line (dark red). The right hand flank is more open for discussion, but I think the ease of rotation around the tree (orange) allows for red to better keep the position and a more forward front line.
Another difference to note was it was far easier for red to spam onto the point with the geo around this stair and the medium ammo in the alcove of that sniper fence.
A3:
A3 was played for 9 rounds with a 1:8, red:blu win ratio.
Top down with more annotations. The whole upper building changed, and in extension most of the areas red can hold. The biggest weakness of which was red getting trapped in the house without any real advantages. While the position of the train did not change between the iterations, it became more of a nuisance for red to use as cover or height advantage. The left route also is more open to suggest that players can both move to the left or into the building, with the building being ultimately useless.
Also, the right hand route became harder to hold, and I think this was partially a fault of the building (again), but also because I removed the quick rotation between the left and right routes. While the right hand side never had much in the way of cover, simplifying the route also made it harder for red to escape fights.
And the building geo made it much harder to spam onto the point.
Amoney:
Top down with new intentions. So while I'm not returning to the intentions of pushing the left route, I'm hoping the new iteration of the building is more encouraging of fighting in the left route. Cover positions are marked in light red, and the quick rotation around the building in orange.
Hopefully both of these ideas contribute to more red advantage and the building being more worthwhile to be in.
And a bonus rock on the right route for cover and fun.
Here's hoping Adollar is better. Thanks for reading.
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Last edited:
A5:
Right now I'm seeing pushing the covered route as being critical to blu's success. This is likely due to the the removal of red's options to counter blu's hold over the point. I'll continue watching this area, but I have a feeling blu still needs a leg up here.
To the people suggesting opening the rail as a route, I've considered it. I might try it in a later version, but I think it would end up being more advantageous for red unless I severely gimp their ability to use it. It would also cause some problems with roofs around the rail being similar height and unwalkable. Maybe before I go to beta, I'll submit a version with no clipping..
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Also, people are often complaining about only getting to play one side of the map. If anyone has any ideas on how to implement a consistent spawn changing mechanism in arena that would be great!
It technically works through the team_control_point_master keyvalue, but only when the round is won by point capture (which is rare due to the size of the map). The overall options of tf_logic_arena are pretty limited, and I'm not sure how to make changes to the spawn point keyvalues without it being overwritten by a new round.
Does anyone know of an entity setup that could dynamically toggle the info_player_teamspawn "Team" keyvalue (choice) between each team that would be best? I'd even consider a random chance option.
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- Scooted blu spawn back to its original position
- Added highground in the highground of the tree route that favors blu
- Boarded up the second red window overlooking the point
- Widened the covered route
- Looking to reduce the effectiveness of explosive spam
Right now I'm seeing pushing the covered route as being critical to blu's success. This is likely due to the the removal of red's options to counter blu's hold over the point. I'll continue watching this area, but I have a feeling blu still needs a leg up here.
To the people suggesting opening the rail as a route, I've considered it. I might try it in a later version, but I think it would end up being more advantageous for red unless I severely gimp their ability to use it. It would also cause some problems with roofs around the rail being similar height and unwalkable. Maybe before I go to beta, I'll submit a version with no clipping..
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Also, people are often complaining about only getting to play one side of the map. If anyone has any ideas on how to implement a consistent spawn changing mechanism in arena that would be great!
It technically works through the team_control_point_master keyvalue, but only when the round is won by point capture (which is rare due to the size of the map). The overall options of tf_logic_arena are pretty limited, and I'm not sure how to make changes to the spawn point keyvalues without it being overwritten by a new round.
Does anyone know of an entity setup that could dynamically toggle the info_player_teamspawn "Team" keyvalue (choice) between each team that would be best? I'd even consider a random chance option.
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You use logic_auto "OnNewMap" to change the info_player_teamspawn on map load. Or, if you wanted, have a cluster of options chosen by a logic_case, and do "PickRandom" to enable/disable certain respawn groups.
I haven't played your map yet so I don't know exactly what you mean. Do drop by the Discord again to see if we can help ya.
I haven't played your map yet so I don't know exactly what you mean. Do drop by the Discord again to see if we can help ya.
I have trouble getting responses to basic questions in Discord because I tend to map when it's least active. That's why I like to post my troubles and thoughts on the website. Also, means more people are more likely to see it.
Anyway, this is an asymmetrical arena map so the geo for both teams is different. Therefore, the goal is to switch the teams' spawns every round so that the players can experience more of the map (and maybe help some players get a better grip on how I'm attempting to balance the asym rather than immediately decrying the height advantages).
I tried a bit with logic_auto, but I can't seem to get that to play nice with even a one time change to the spawn points (SetTeam or enable/disable separate entities). Part of me thinks that the players spawn at the moment the OnMultiNewRound fires so that the changes to the spawnpoints don't apply in time, but even OnNewMap/OnMultiNewMap doesn't seem to work (I would expect it to fire on load up before 2 players were ready and a round could be started).
Quick setup in the attachment based on ABS's prefab. Just trying to get the teams to spawn in the opposite color, if anyone wants to try.
The entity you want is env_global. This will carry over to the next round.
Here is a VMF of just that: env_global in action. This enables the new respawn points, disables the old ones and forces a respawn (game_forcerespawn) to those new points. It isn't seamless unfortunately, but that can be fixed by putting players in a dark room without lights to make it seem like the transition is pitch black (like a loading screen).
Here are the list of changes I made to your VMF:
Setting up env_global and logic_auto is easy -- the parameter "Global State to Read" can be set to the Global State of the env_global.
And that's it! Good luck!!
Here is a VMF of just that: env_global in action. This enables the new respawn points, disables the old ones and forces a respawn (game_forcerespawn) to those new points. It isn't seamless unfortunately, but that can be fixed by putting players in a dark room without lights to make it seem like the transition is pitch black (like a loading screen).
Here are the list of changes I made to your VMF:
- Modified tf_logic_arena - Added input OnArenaRoundStart to toggle the env_global.
- Added env_global - This can be toggled "On" and "Off". Explained more below.
- Modified logic_auto - Used in conjunction with env_global to switch team spawns.
- Added game_forcerespawn -- Forces respawning by means of input ForceRespawn.
- Added a skybox.
Setting up env_global and logic_auto is easy -- the parameter "Global State to Read" can be set to the Global State of the env_global.
And that's it! Good luck!!
A6:
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- Implemented spawn switching mechanism
- Players spawn into "welcome" area and then are respawned into each spawn, swapping based on round
- Thanks to @Yaki for the basic ent setup, env_global is pretty cool
- Attempted to shorten sightline through red's house
- Improved clipping around the boulder between red's spawn and house
- Moved ammo in blu's house for better visibility
- Added a fence on the cliff next to the felled log to better protect people using the stairs
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Hot thoughts:
Liking A6, and wondering how much I can subject people to it before I simply move the map to beta. I'd love anyone's input on things they don't like or do like. Arena's divisive as is, and I'm sure the complete asymmetry will increase that, but I'm of the opinion that this is close to balanced at the moment (numbers below). So please voice your opinions here or PM me.
A6 balance:
So with the hot swapping spawns implemented, I felt better equipped to interpret the overall balance data. Realistically, I should be able to apply this to A5, but it's much easier to make these conclusions with the swapping in place.
At face value the win rate was 3/8 (RED/BLU), however the initial 2 rounds (both Red wins) were lower player counts (1v1, 3v3). Removing these low player count rounds we have 1/8 in favor of Blu, but if geometry were a major issue we'd see a more even split due to spawn switching.
First, I did a simple tally of the spawn location per win.
Red-High | Red-Low | Blu-High | Blu-Low
1 | 0 | 4 | 4
Nothing conclusive, but maybe Red was able to win due to the high ground.
However, like with A5, I started to notice the medic counts. The first 2 rounds can be ignored.
Round | Red Medics | Blu Medics | Spawn Location | Winning Team
1 | 0 | 0 | Standard | Red
2 | 0 | 1 | Opposite | Red
3 | 1 | 1 | Standard | Blu
4 | 1 | 2 | Opposite | Blu
5 | 1 | 2 | Standard | Blu
6 | 2 | 3 | Opposite | Blu
7 | 2 | 2 | Standard | Red
8 | 1 | 2 | Opposite | Blu
9 | 1 | 2 | Standard | Blu
10 | 1 | 2 | Opposite | Blu
11 | 1 | 2 | Standard | Blu
As you can see my map somehow inspires people to play medic, especially the exceptional round 6. Anyway, only two rounds had equal medic counts with a 1/1 win rate. All other rounds Blu had more medics and won.
Some other interesting findings:
Round | Notes
3 | No Red players went the tree route, allowing Blu to wrap around from behind. 3v3 at the end, with a quickfix uber to decide the round.
4 | One Blu player had a 6 kill streak, with one and half kills off of first blood crits.
6 | Two Red players died to first blood crits (1 medic), and no Blu players died (3 medics).
7 | 3v3 at the end, with an uber to decide the round.
8 | Blu kill streaks: 5, 3, 2; two Blu scouts pushed through mid and got the 5 and 3 kill streaks. Not connected to first blood crits.
9 | One Blu player got a 5 kill streak, with one off of first blood crits.
10 | One Red player got a 5 kill streak, with one off of first blood crits.
From all of this I'm getting the impression that I might need to add more health to the map to combat medic dependence, but I'm very reluctant to add health. Maybe I'll do a quick A6A. Anyway, your thoughts would be appreciated!
Liking A6, and wondering how much I can subject people to it before I simply move the map to beta. I'd love anyone's input on things they don't like or do like. Arena's divisive as is, and I'm sure the complete asymmetry will increase that, but I'm of the opinion that this is close to balanced at the moment (numbers below). So please voice your opinions here or PM me.
A6 balance:
So with the hot swapping spawns implemented, I felt better equipped to interpret the overall balance data. Realistically, I should be able to apply this to A5, but it's much easier to make these conclusions with the swapping in place.
At face value the win rate was 3/8 (RED/BLU), however the initial 2 rounds (both Red wins) were lower player counts (1v1, 3v3). Removing these low player count rounds we have 1/8 in favor of Blu, but if geometry were a major issue we'd see a more even split due to spawn switching.
First, I did a simple tally of the spawn location per win.
Red-High | Red-Low | Blu-High | Blu-Low
1 | 0 | 4 | 4
However, like with A5, I started to notice the medic counts. The first 2 rounds can be ignored.
Round | Red Medics | Blu Medics | Spawn Location | Winning Team
1 | 0 | 0 | Standard | Red
2 | 0 | 1 | Opposite | Red
3 | 1 | 1 | Standard | Blu
4 | 1 | 2 | Opposite | Blu
5 | 1 | 2 | Standard | Blu
6 | 2 | 3 | Opposite | Blu
7 | 2 | 2 | Standard | Red
8 | 1 | 2 | Opposite | Blu
9 | 1 | 2 | Standard | Blu
10 | 1 | 2 | Opposite | Blu
11 | 1 | 2 | Standard | Blu
Some other interesting findings:
Round | Notes
3 | No Red players went the tree route, allowing Blu to wrap around from behind. 3v3 at the end, with a quickfix uber to decide the round.
4 | One Blu player had a 6 kill streak, with one and half kills off of first blood crits.
6 | Two Red players died to first blood crits (1 medic), and no Blu players died (3 medics).
7 | 3v3 at the end, with an uber to decide the round.
8 | Blu kill streaks: 5, 3, 2; two Blu scouts pushed through mid and got the 5 and 3 kill streaks. Not connected to first blood crits.
9 | One Blu player got a 5 kill streak, with one off of first blood crits.
10 | One Red player got a 5 kill streak, with one off of first blood crits.
From all of this I'm getting the impression that I might need to add more health to the map to combat medic dependence, but I'm very reluctant to add health. Maybe I'll do a quick A6A. Anyway, your thoughts would be appreciated!
B1:
Still a lot to do detail-wise (mostly a proper skybox), but I've been staring at this for far too long. I'm a bit concerned about optimization, but I tried my hand at occluders and some aggressive prop fades to help.
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- Detailed!
- This likely resulted in minor geo changes + a few odd props here and there on the sides of gameplay space
- Added a health pack on the high side; it's position might be too useful, but we'll see
Still a lot to do detail-wise (mostly a proper skybox), but I've been staring at this for far too long. I'm a bit concerned about optimization, but I tried my hand at occluders and some aggressive prop fades to help.
Read the rest of this update entry...
CafeineMan
L2: Junior Member
- Jul 31, 2010
- 95
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