- Oct 12, 2018
- 133
- 25
- Thread starter skaz_
- Start date
- Oct 12, 2018
- 133
- 25
skaztf updated Albion with a new update entry:
A2 - refinements
Read the rest of this update entry...
A2 - refinements
Read the rest of this update entry...
- Oct 12, 2018
- 133
- 25
Last edited:
FlipFTW
L1: Registered
- Jul 12, 2020
- 12
- 17
Hey Skaz,
Was excited to have a look around the map, I'm a fan of mannbase - so was interested in seeing what you might come up with.
Note: All these notes were for A2, I haven't look around A3 yet.
Critiques:
Albion Mid Size: ~2500 across, ~3535 diagonal
Sunshine Mid (Comparison): ~1800 across, ~2500 diagonal
Albion Mid to 2nd: ~3400
Sunshine Mid to 2nd: ~2500
Albion 2nd: ~2200
Sunshine 2nd: ~1700
Process 2nd: ~2000
Additional Note: You have a 4000 unit sightline from the "scaffolding" area looking to the "process sewer-like" area (main choke). This is ludicrously long, the longest sightline on upward is ~3000.
Snap things to grid - you're just creating random problem that competitive players will find - there is a ledge that is unclipped above the mid-2nd choke, there are tons of examples of other props and brushes not snapped to grid that I recommend you resolve when/if you rescale. Having things go to the 1 grid = really bad precedent that makes it really easy to make mistakes.
Grid additions: Try to work in 32 for ground stuff, try to use 8 and 16 for walls - whenever you can 64 is ideal. This will also probably lend better control over adjusting sightlines. NEVER work in 2 or 1, even 4 is primarily for detail.
Lastly - You are using the tf2map's koth config which has the horrible defaults of 8 second respawn times for the attacking team when they own 4 points, and ~16 second respawns for the defender in the same situation resulting in a very difficult to push and not-balanced at all testing experience (Learned this the hard way with Sultry).
I didn't bother to experiment more since I'm sure that this is on the unintentional, but I also saw a 26 second respawn time which is on the unheard of end for 5cp - I would reference the current koth respawn times knowing that it'll be double what you set the respawn-wavetime to (check the wiki for the normal 5cp maps, but you generally want 8sec (16sec) as a general range.
If you have any questions about anything I said, feel free to private message me on discord or @ me on the testco server - I love talking 5cp.
Was excited to have a look around the map, I'm a fan of mannbase - so was interested in seeing what you might come up with.
Note: All these notes were for A2, I haven't look around A3 yet.
Critiques:
- Map is massively over-scaled - this also had to do with sightlines
- Distance seems very extreme not only between points but also at points (The mid feels like it stretches as far as some maps 2nd to 2nd is). Detailed critique of distances later in post.
- The result of this is that the optimal rollout has nothing to do with being fast - it requires a fully charged sticky to even have a chance of hitting any of the door-to-doors, and soldier's rollout out fast only serves to waste health as there isn't really any worthwhile ground to take early, and the distance is so extreme w/ doors so wide you'll only accomplish minimum damage splash.
- Sunshine/Process mids are wide, but don't feel that way because of props making areas claustrophobic, the pillars on Albion don't really do much to obstruct space, they're more annoying than effective or functional - walk around sunshine's mid and see what the longest sightline you can get is, then compare it to Albion.
- Route's rotations are often much too disconnected - the flank is effectively isolated from the combo for most of the holds you propose - this is a massive issue when you consider that the attacking team can very easily rotate heals - especially since vision/spotting is excessively poor in/out of 2nd and last. The combo has to always be able to effectively rotate to oppose the enemy combo - if the distances between the combo and the flank are too far, it violates this principle, and it will result in a point being too easy to push by simply rotating.
- Cull the dead space -
-
-
[*] - Skybox on last is too low - difficult to effectively bomb as soldier
-
Albion Mid Size: ~2500 across, ~3535 diagonal
Sunshine Mid (Comparison): ~1800 across, ~2500 diagonal
Albion Mid to 2nd: ~3400
Sunshine Mid to 2nd: ~2500
Albion 2nd: ~2200
Sunshine 2nd: ~1700
Process 2nd: ~2000
Additional Note: You have a 4000 unit sightline from the "scaffolding" area looking to the "process sewer-like" area (main choke). This is ludicrously long, the longest sightline on upward is ~3000.
Snap things to grid - you're just creating random problem that competitive players will find - there is a ledge that is unclipped above the mid-2nd choke, there are tons of examples of other props and brushes not snapped to grid that I recommend you resolve when/if you rescale. Having things go to the 1 grid = really bad precedent that makes it really easy to make mistakes.
Grid additions: Try to work in 32 for ground stuff, try to use 8 and 16 for walls - whenever you can 64 is ideal. This will also probably lend better control over adjusting sightlines. NEVER work in 2 or 1, even 4 is primarily for detail.
Lastly - You are using the tf2map's koth config which has the horrible defaults of 8 second respawn times for the attacking team when they own 4 points, and ~16 second respawns for the defender in the same situation resulting in a very difficult to push and not-balanced at all testing experience (Learned this the hard way with Sultry).
I didn't bother to experiment more since I'm sure that this is on the unintentional, but I also saw a 26 second respawn time which is on the unheard of end for 5cp - I would reference the current koth respawn times knowing that it'll be double what you set the respawn-wavetime to (check the wiki for the normal 5cp maps, but you generally want 8sec (16sec) as a general range.
If you have any questions about anything I said, feel free to private message me on discord or @ me on the testco server - I love talking 5cp.
- Oct 12, 2018
- 133
- 25
Hey Flip!
Really appreciate the feedback! In terms of scaling the map is over scaled, been a while since I've mapped so bit rusty with scaling. The long sightline you mention from the scaffolding to cove (the area like sewer) was more the most part a detailing/theming decision. I'd like to keep the feel of the long beach while removing the sightline.
I will admit that I was very lazy with the brushwork this far on the map, but I've been working to improve it. I realize the importance of it and do strive to use anywhere from 8-64 grid size. This map was built on a previous map of mine where the brushes were not great and due to me copying over some of the brush work from the previous map it's kind of just stayed that way. Over the next few version I'll be fixing it up.
The spawn times are literally just pasted from a template I have, so it was unintentional, I myself haven't even played the map yet with bots which was just something I forgot to do.
The flank you mention which is quite disconnected was an idea I've had for some time and was also something on Mannbase which I tried out. The flank entrance on Mannbase mid (the entrance with the 90 degree entrance and balcony above) to me feels to be a more disconnected version of the same idea. I thought that by lowering the entrance of valley and having an easy way (spire) to rotate from choke to the flank would be a better execution of a disconnected flank.
I understand the issue with having a disconnected flank but I've always had a somewhat romantic idea of the flank and combo being two separated groups.
I know this isn't how the game is played, it isn't even how I want to play, but hey what's a man to do when he gets a dumb idea.
Really appreciate the feedback! In terms of scaling the map is over scaled, been a while since I've mapped so bit rusty with scaling. The long sightline you mention from the scaffolding to cove (the area like sewer) was more the most part a detailing/theming decision. I'd like to keep the feel of the long beach while removing the sightline.
I will admit that I was very lazy with the brushwork this far on the map, but I've been working to improve it. I realize the importance of it and do strive to use anywhere from 8-64 grid size. This map was built on a previous map of mine where the brushes were not great and due to me copying over some of the brush work from the previous map it's kind of just stayed that way. Over the next few version I'll be fixing it up.
The spawn times are literally just pasted from a template I have, so it was unintentional, I myself haven't even played the map yet with bots which was just something I forgot to do.
The flank you mention which is quite disconnected was an idea I've had for some time and was also something on Mannbase which I tried out. The flank entrance on Mannbase mid (the entrance with the 90 degree entrance and balcony above) to me feels to be a more disconnected version of the same idea. I thought that by lowering the entrance of valley and having an easy way (spire) to rotate from choke to the flank would be a better execution of a disconnected flank.
I understand the issue with having a disconnected flank but I've always had a somewhat romantic idea of the flank and combo being two separated groups.
I know this isn't how the game is played, it isn't even how I want to play, but hey what's a man to do when he gets a dumb idea.
FlipFTW
L1: Registered
- Jul 12, 2020
- 12
- 17
I got a second opinion while looking at V3: Comments from an Adv Solider
Map feels too big - even if the mid is about normal size, the established maps don't feel as empty/wide
The central structure on mid looks like it should be fought over - but it isn't worth being fought over, no room to dodge like sunshine bell, doesn't give significant control over any important features.
No real reason to aggress on mids because enemy will be fortified on high ground, sniper probably right way to play mid
clipping on mid & degenerate corners (you can stand on all the fences and areas above the fences)
proposed hold 2nd - process choke is much better defended, smaller and not able to high bomb through. Sunshine has a catchers mitt to help protect any player close. Proposed hold also loses hard to sniper - absolutely no way to pressure sniper effectively, sightline incredibly powerful.
Flank on 2nd is incredibly distant from combo. Probably most effective way to hold 2nd is to deathball on the point.
If a map has sections and defined transition areas it makes it easier to learn - lack of effective chokes to separate areas make it hard to hold and hard to learn. Conversely, doorway leading to another doorway in quick succession is very annoying to clear/deal with.
lobby into last - very long, fence is just awk clutter, lobby should be tighter corner not long sightline
impossible for flank to deal with one way dropdown, combo could just sit close lower - and commit when enemy team attempts to push out shutter, really difficult to deal with. Fine to play 6man in lobby (attacking) since impossible for sac to come effectively form scaffolding
Seems very difficult to sac into last, probably use though scaffolding because its close, milk shutter because its got most cover.
Overall: Awk terrain, unusual small elevation changes, not great holding positions, long sniper sightlines, pointless obstacles/annoyances (pillars, crouch jumps)
If your flanks are too connected => propaganda - always possible to drypush, no value in holding (chaotic mess)
if your flanks are too disconnected & Few => gullywash - very difficult to push (only 2 routes)
if you flanks are too disconnect => villa 2nd - only holdable by having the defending team play very passive (can't hold close)
I predict the 2nd right now will have the same issue as villa - there is no real reason to not sit on the high ground, even getting in through the choke requires pushing into the high ground, resulting in an infamous level of stalemating.
Note: Process isn't considered the holy grail of 6s maps, I actually think its becoming outdated as the pace and ideas of 6s develops.
Map feels too big - even if the mid is about normal size, the established maps don't feel as empty/wide
The central structure on mid looks like it should be fought over - but it isn't worth being fought over, no room to dodge like sunshine bell, doesn't give significant control over any important features.
No real reason to aggress on mids because enemy will be fortified on high ground, sniper probably right way to play mid
clipping on mid & degenerate corners (you can stand on all the fences and areas above the fences)
proposed hold 2nd - process choke is much better defended, smaller and not able to high bomb through. Sunshine has a catchers mitt to help protect any player close. Proposed hold also loses hard to sniper - absolutely no way to pressure sniper effectively, sightline incredibly powerful.
Flank on 2nd is incredibly distant from combo. Probably most effective way to hold 2nd is to deathball on the point.
If a map has sections and defined transition areas it makes it easier to learn - lack of effective chokes to separate areas make it hard to hold and hard to learn. Conversely, doorway leading to another doorway in quick succession is very annoying to clear/deal with.
lobby into last - very long, fence is just awk clutter, lobby should be tighter corner not long sightline
impossible for flank to deal with one way dropdown, combo could just sit close lower - and commit when enemy team attempts to push out shutter, really difficult to deal with. Fine to play 6man in lobby (attacking) since impossible for sac to come effectively form scaffolding
Seems very difficult to sac into last, probably use though scaffolding because its close, milk shutter because its got most cover.
Overall: Awk terrain, unusual small elevation changes, not great holding positions, long sniper sightlines, pointless obstacles/annoyances (pillars, crouch jumps)
if your flanks are too disconnected & Few => gullywash - very difficult to push (only 2 routes)
if you flanks are too disconnect => villa 2nd - only holdable by having the defending team play very passive (can't hold close)
I predict the 2nd right now will have the same issue as villa - there is no real reason to not sit on the high ground, even getting in through the choke requires pushing into the high ground, resulting in an infamous level of stalemating.
Note: Process isn't considered the holy grail of 6s maps, I actually think its becoming outdated as the pace and ideas of 6s develops.