[Contest Entry] pl_frontier

eerieone

eerieone

aa
Aug 19, 2008
1,011
1,158
I have to second |Cerious| opinion, played it once with full team with none of them being stacked. out of 8 matches only one got to the final point with much luck because red didn´t pay attention to two medics building up uber. the other games died at the 1st and 2nd point.

i have to agree that some passages dont channel the playerflow to a constructive push, they mostly serve red to get behind the attackers. moving up cp´s often does the job, forcing red to walk longer to get to the defense-area and killing a massive chokepoint.

i had massive killing-sprees as spy and pyro, the sentrypositions did the rest.

the optics of the map are magnificent, can´t argue with that, but now that engis get grip of the map, you have to make some tweaks.
it all might be due to the fact, that the engi-update screwed up some layout-decisions, giving red more solid little fortresses.

anyhow, love the map, but it still needs some gameflow-adjustments
 
B

Blindfate

L1: Registered
Nov 2, 2008
43
6
It's not that hard to win it, imo. Generally when we play blue wins unless red is pretty heavy in experienced players.
 
MangyCarface

MangyCarface

Mapper
aa
Feb 26, 2008
1,626
1,325
One thing that's often overlooked is that when you give RED side passages, it reduces the concentration of RED in the currently being assaulted area. This prevents stagnant gameplay IMO: look at GR 1:2. Red essentially has 1 path to leave the area from (2, 3 for the rocketjumpers) This creates the chokepointy, stale snore-fest that you see in the area. Blu constantly gets dumped into an area that will inevitably have more RED than BLU has in the region.

I personally love the fight up the hill before point 2. This is a difficult, difficult fight without being overly prone to sentry positions. The most solid position can be bombarded from afar with stickies, and is typically how I deal with the situation. Red defends this point 20% of the time it's in play (according to statistics F_M has provided me. I am ALWAYS eager for more sources of server-provided statistics)

This is in contrast to point 1, which I think is a pain and not fun. Over my vacation I've thought of a way to solve this and the FPS problems in the area, which will be playtested and then released in beta 2. The new area should be much easier to win for offense.

Point 3 is only hard circumstantially. A strong steamroll on point 2 will usually end with point 3 seeing a decent defense. It can go either way and I'm happy with it.

Point 4 is easy peasy lemon squeezy. Even with RED spawning right on top, I've told the entire RED team to go engineer and they've still failed. There are a billion paths for BLU to bombard sentries from and once the underbelly of the point is overrun, RED rarely defends. If BLU's made a decent push through the map, they'll have 8+ minutes to take the last point, which becomes very difficult for RED to last through.

I do appreciate the feedback. I do! But I'd like to see solid evidence of defense-overpowerment before I make drastic changes (currently statistics put the win ratio at 45 blu, 55 red.) Remember one of my goals in this map was to make flanking a priority for RED rather than sitting around guarding chokes. If your team is failing when you're blu... jump on the train! It's fast enough that if you're close, even scout rushes have a chance of succeeding!

Anyway, pile on the criticism, it helps me formulate my next move :)
 
Cerious

Cerious

L420: High Member
Aug 10, 2008
455
133
Well, the thing is your logic on red not being concentrated is flawed, because while the defense isn't on the chokepoints now, Blu's assault is just being flanked from every single angle. Imagine instead in GR 1:2 that Red didn't have only one way to leave, but a myriad of ways to leave. You're not only spreading apart the defense (which is also better, because this allows spies, pyros, and demos to simply flank the opposition) but also spreading the offense, which makes it tough to make a major push in any sort of pub. You could counter this by saying that if they were coordinated, they could push through, but Goldrush could be won easily with coordination, and Goldrush is in no way an easy map for Blu as shown by the Valve stats.

If you look at Badwater, it has only one or two ways to ambush the opponent if you are on defense at the end. Most of the map is very linear with just a few side passageways that overlook the tracks. This mostly serves Blu an advantage to break down the Red defense. And, as stated by eerieone, Blu can hardly find any advantage in this map. Coupled with your "difficult, difficult fight" uphill, this makes a hard map even harder.

Also, my idea about payload maps is that they get harder the further you progress, and easier to defend. Currently, you have the toughest parts in the beginning and the last parts are a steamroll.
 
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Tinker

Tinker

aa
Oct 30, 2008
672
334
|Cerious| said:
Also, my idea about payload maps is that they get harder the further you progress, and easier to defend. Currently, you have the toughest parts in the beginning and the last parts are a steamroll.
Click to expand...

I don't agree. For BLU, I've found, the hardest parts are around, indeed, the first cap, then the metal building around I think it's cap 2, and then the final cap.

However, I've found that if RED doesn't watch out, they can be easily steamrolled through as well - double heavy + medic on the cart for example, makes it hard to get anything through. Heavies are great cart defenders.

I think it's pretty fair after doing quite a lot of playthroughs.
 
Ida

Ida

deer
aa
Jan 6, 2008
2,289
1,372
One little bit of feedback: The last point isn't very fun, because it's so cluttered. There are people and other obstructions everywhere when the train is close to the end, not to mention the train itself adds to the chaos. Some more space would be nice.

This was my first time playing, so I can't say a lot more, other than that I really like it.
 
Zeewier

Zeewier

L9: Fashionable Member
Sep 20, 2008
619
262
Really like this map, best map in the contest atm (with 10 days left) imo ;)

When I play this map it's a ~50:50 win/lose i think....

But I made 2 new records on point defenses as demo because it's (apparently) very hard to see stickies that are placed "under" (its clipped) the platform.

btw maybe update the first post because the last update was 11-13-2008 at 05:58 AM..
 
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laghlagh

laghlagh

L6: Sharp Member
Jul 15, 2008
389
53
|Cerious| said:
I'm not trolling, just stating my opinion. There are so many corridors, passageways, and little nooks and crannies to hide in that it basically is really hard to push forward. I have NEVER seen this map get to the end. Sure it looks nice, but I just don't like the gameplay. It's either that the spawns are way too close, red has too many height advantages over blu, or it's so easy to get lost in. The uphill nature of the second point and the longevity of both the first and second points are just horrific for attackers. If you're going to make the map any easier, move ALL the points forward except for the final. This map is just too difficult in any environment in its current state.
Click to expand...

Yup I'm sorry.
 
F

FLOOR_MASTER

L3: Member
Mar 10, 2008
118
140
Stats from 2009-01-01 to present:
Code: 
pl_frontier_b1:
  None                                    25 (29%)
  CP1                                     10 (12%)
  CP2                                      2 (2%)
  CP3                                      7 (8%)
  CP4                                     42 (49%)

Or you can read it as:
No points captured: 29%
CP1 captured: 71%
CP2 captured: 59%
CP3 captured: 57%
CP4 captured: 49%

One of these days (soon) I'm going to modify my stats parser to determine the median time spent capturing each point. That should give a more insightful picture than simply "captured/not captured".
 
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B

Blindfate

L1: Registered
Nov 2, 2008
43
6
From my experience, a lot of the problem with capturing point two is that there aren't very many options for taking it other than a very good demo man. I think that perhaps making the slope of the hill a little less harsh might help a bit.



This is one of the only custom maps that on the G4B2S server doesn't make the vast majority of the non-regular players leave.


I don't know why I wait a few days after I play to post these comments. haha.
 
Scotland Tom

Scotland Tom

L6: Sharp Member
Jan 19, 2008
332
64
Along with arena_Lighthouse and pl_Waste I had to mention Frontier in my monthly "Promising Upcoming Customs" blog entry. While I haven't really been available for game days the unique alterations on the payload game type are incredibly intriguing to me and I'm anxious to see how they effect gameplay. Oh, and despite what I've said previously, the model for Lil' Chew-Chew has definitely grown on me.

By the way, the 3D skybox... it's like the alpine and desert environments got together and had themselves a sexy love-child. Truly gorgeous.
 
MangyCarface

MangyCarface

Mapper
aa
Feb 26, 2008
1,626
1,325
Thank you for all your feedback; I've incorporated it into BETA 2:


-Various graphical changes/fixes:
Brighter ambient lighting
Greater HDR bloom (slightly)
Displacement errors sewn
Quarry smoothed slightly
Poster moved indoors
Translucent prop in quarry removed
Other fixes
-Cart fixes:
Chewchew's hitbox is much more accurate-enjoy, snipers!
Chewchew is now the correct distance above the track
Chewchew no longer brings RED players into BLU setup area if falling backwards
-Balance fixes:
Point 1 has been revamped to make it much easier for BLU; BLU also spawns faster now.
Setup time has been increased to 70 seconds and starting time decreased to 5:50.
Point 1 rewards 30 more seconds; Point 2, 10 less, Point 3, 10 more.
Maximum time is now 10 minutes- down from Beta 2's 14. Enjoy, red!
Point 2 has been moved back to make its capture easier for BLU.
Point 4 has been moved forward 128 units- harder to capture.
Fixture on roof near pt 1 is now Nobuild. Catwalks after Point 1, as well.
Concrete area overlooking hill extended; railing added to reduce sentry power+pyro spam
-Optimization: Doors after Point 1 removed (prevents RED pyro invasions as well)
Dropdown after Point 1 moved to the right
Various touch-ups to geometry to promote FPS
Areaporals tweaked; hint brushes added
Potentially, 20-30% performance increase, but this will vary per machine
-Other changes: Red first spawn expanded to feel less cramped.
Goals added to beginning of round.
Signs now change depending on spawns; additional signs added
Explosion is 3x larger than previously. Enjoy! (There will be further additions in b3.)
Various clipping errors revamped.
Exploit after Point 1 removed (sentry behind displacement)
Quicklist image added. Find a frontier server fast!
Can no longer jump up sign near point 1 onto cliff area.


Links:
http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=929
http://www.fpsbanana.com/maps/74124
 
flubber

flubber

L4: Comfortable Member
Nov 16, 2007
171
35
Problem with this spot :


We took the second point but a red inge was still in there with a TP exit, since there's no way to go upside (soldier is pushed away by a sentry) and demo grenade or sticky don't reach the end of the room. We didn't even saw the TP in fact, i tried after the game to test with the inge to see if it was possible to destroy him from under. Maybe you should close the hole or leave one door open.
 
T

TheNeverman

L1: Registered
Oct 5, 2008
47
3
I've come across the disconnected train phenomenon after playing frontier a few times now - seems to be client side issue - the train was halted on the hill here, and then progressed after a minute - but the 2nd car remained behind (on my screen) though everyone else said the train looked fine on the server. I could also see a sniper riding the train (floating in the air where the 2nd card 'should' be).

After I died though - the train was back to normal. I'm sure that's a fun bug to hunt down...
 
Cerious

Cerious

L420: High Member
Aug 10, 2008
455
133
I'll be exploiting this one for ages to come. *not really*.


 
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C

clubtheseals

L1: Registered
Mar 20, 2008
9
1
uc.net server

Well, we just uploaded b2 to our server, and all of the glitches before (train separation) have been fixed. One or two people did point out however that the cones of gravel (like to one outside blu's spawn) don't look particularly great. I thing that the quarry at the last cap could use a little more detail too imo. Point one is definitely more balanced now, and is waaaay less of a chokepoint. Alittle more detail here and there, and the map would be perfect. Already easily community map contender for the next class update.
 
Spike

Spike

L10: Glamorous Member
Feb 13, 2008
716
82
Played it the other day it was fun but unfortunately there was not many people on the server (10 people). It was very when all BLU team went heavies and started spamming bullets from the train, it looked more like a tank than a train.

Some "bugs" I found: When there are many people on the cart it's difficult to be all on it becase players pushing eachothers and players falls down the train in some cases.

Also I found that at the end of a round, the wagon didn't fall down, and stayed in the air.

plfrontierb20003mv9.jpg
 
PMAvers

PMAvers

L6: Sharp Member
Jan 29, 2008
389
142
Huh, I've never actually seen the "wagon" fall into the pit.

Now, with b2, it seems like the the train part will shoot off and bounce off the far wall, and start to fall in. The explosion on the dish will trigger before it gets to it, though. (I'm guessing it's timed to explode as if it was falling straight down into it like it did in previous versions.)
 
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