- Apr 19, 2009
- 4,460
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[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZna0kaHPoU"]YouTube - TF2 cart push self! (pl_hoodoo_final)[/ame]
Hoodoo - likes/dislikes
- Thread starter YM
- Start date
An Icy Mouse
aa
- May 23, 2009
- 205
- 34
This was brough up before, the stats are screwed due to the vast number of instant respawn servers.
I ran through it and everything but everything is already posted 
2 things you need to fix are;
unsappable teleporters is a big no. Why is that visualiser there any way?
Engineer can dispenser jump up here... surely unintentional? Needs either nobuild or playerclip. Probably better to nobuild it cus it will still add some good strategic height for soldiers and demos.
unsappable teleporters is a big no. Why is that visualiser there any way?
Engineer can dispenser jump up here... surely unintentional? Needs either nobuild or playerclip. Probably better to nobuild it cus it will still add some good strategic height for soldiers and demos.
Altaco
L420: High Member
- Jul 3, 2008
- 484
- 120
Those instant respawn servers have the exact same effect on all the other attack defense maps.
My biggest problem with hoodoo is how it uses the one-way gates to balance the map and help out blu team, rather than just have it naturally designed in the layout of the map to give blu advantages in the beginning and less later on.
For example, 1-2 has a one way gate directly over the point, 2-2 has two one-way gates leading out to the point, and the most confusing of all for players are the gates on stage 3 that only open up after you reach a certain point. Not to mention stage 3 is really cramped. I think hoodoo needs too many big design changes to make it better. Too bad valve didn't just choose halfacre, which I feel is much better designed and plays better.
For example, 1-2 has a one way gate directly over the point, 2-2 has two one-way gates leading out to the point, and the most confusing of all for players are the gates on stage 3 that only open up after you reach a certain point. Not to mention stage 3 is really cramped. I think hoodoo needs too many big design changes to make it better. Too bad valve didn't just choose halfacre, which I feel is much better designed and plays better.
Xenesis
L1: Registered
- Mar 8, 2009
- 3
- 1
The biggest problems with the 2-2 balcony is simple - the side path isn't obvious and is easily locked down by one demoman or soldier. The balcony itself offers players no way to edge or attack the sentries without being attacked from both their front or behind, plus whenever an uber that isn't a demoman attempts to go for the sentries (Uber Pyro or Heavy for example) will easily be pinned to the wall with a single airblast or a slight misstep thanks to the long and narrow slope, there's absolutely no safe areas to decloak as a spy nearby (especially with the massive decloak nerf) without being heard/spychecked to death meaning that there is really no ways to get a foothold and attack those sentries safely unless you've got an extremely cohesive team of at least 6 people working in concert. Which rarely, if ever happens in pubs - You'll usually get pairs of people working together or a whole team "sorta" working together.
A change for the better would be to mirror that balcony over to the back wall of the room instead of the front. It'd weaken the value of the sentry positions quite significantly as they could be sniped and edged by demos/soldiers. It'd also make a Spy's job easier as it places the enemy focus in only one direction rather than two. Another option would be to add some "clutter" to the balcony such that stacking up to four sentries on the overhang is not effective, only one could shoot out from that angle. Because it's basically impossible to get very close with an uber with that much knockback, even for a demoman because a single ounce of knockback pins you to the wall.
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, this map hates Spies. A LOT. It's not so bad at the start of the map on all three stages because there are a few nooks and crannies to hide in but finding useful decloak positions is next to impossible in the intermediate to final phases of the map because there are very few line-of sight blockers near the cart path that would allow the spy to decloak and attack, especially when defending the final point. While there are a lot of tunnels and the like, they're pretty narrow and hairy to traverse with just a meagre 8 seconds of cloak, or you uncloak far away and risk running the spycheck gauntlet.
I think a good example of what I mean is to look at Badwater in general, or the final points of Goldrush 1 and 3 - The maps are quite well designed in the way that there are lots of areas on the defense where you can't see everything. Lots of small nooks that attract very little player traffic or interest, but are also highly shielded from the line of sight to allow the spies a good place to decloak. Not to say that good spies can't flourish, but it makes life possible for the mediocre spies out there who don't really want to hit "change class" once the map reaches it's second half.
A change for the better would be to mirror that balcony over to the back wall of the room instead of the front. It'd weaken the value of the sentry positions quite significantly as they could be sniped and edged by demos/soldiers. It'd also make a Spy's job easier as it places the enemy focus in only one direction rather than two. Another option would be to add some "clutter" to the balcony such that stacking up to four sentries on the overhang is not effective, only one could shoot out from that angle. Because it's basically impossible to get very close with an uber with that much knockback, even for a demoman because a single ounce of knockback pins you to the wall.
Edit: Actually, now that I think about it, this map hates Spies. A LOT. It's not so bad at the start of the map on all three stages because there are a few nooks and crannies to hide in but finding useful decloak positions is next to impossible in the intermediate to final phases of the map because there are very few line-of sight blockers near the cart path that would allow the spy to decloak and attack, especially when defending the final point. While there are a lot of tunnels and the like, they're pretty narrow and hairy to traverse with just a meagre 8 seconds of cloak, or you uncloak far away and risk running the spycheck gauntlet.
I think a good example of what I mean is to look at Badwater in general, or the final points of Goldrush 1 and 3 - The maps are quite well designed in the way that there are lots of areas on the defense where you can't see everything. Lots of small nooks that attract very little player traffic or interest, but are also highly shielded from the line of sight to allow the spies a good place to decloak. Not to say that good spies can't flourish, but it makes life possible for the mediocre spies out there who don't really want to hit "change class" once the map reaches it's second half.
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Too bad halfacre wasn't chosen. I feel it solves all these problems and is a much better, open map.
It wasn't ready when valve asked me for hoodoo. I wouldn't have let them have it untill it was finished, halfacre also lags on lower spec PCs so it's not a good candidate.
Today's work, I'm not finding much time for mapping now, I hope to get the changes done to hoodoo done reasonably soon though:
Old:
- Aug 11, 2008
- 947
- 560
Old:
That is probably one of the easiest, yet greatest fixes to it.
Simply allowing people to get up there without having to turn around allows an uber or any class to have a better shot at taking out those sentries.
Stage 1 is great, I like it and have had nice battles there, lost too. Stage 2, I think your change will be well-welcomed. Stage 3, I wish I had a way to get to the top areas as a class that isn't soldier/demo in some way without having to go past the point. Probably just me nitpicking and wanting an easier attack, which is probably not your intended target, as stage 3 is supposed to be the hardest-to-attack stage.
An Icy Mouse
aa
- May 23, 2009
- 205
- 34
That should ease up that section a lot
It's strange that players say needing an uber to push through an area is bad.. since uber's are a core team play element, which is kinda key for TEAM fortress. but I guess if you need an uber every single time regardless then it's too much.
It's strange that players say needing an uber to push through an area is bad.. since uber's are a core team play element, which is kinda key for TEAM fortress. but I guess if you need an uber every single time regardless then it's too much.
I try to overhear the moaning about a chokepoint only being crackable with multiple ubers, since that´s bs
and i never regarded the area in the screenshots as unbalanced, i liked it for it´s variety
dustbowl 2-2, a single uber can win the last point, uber jumps in, pulls the sentryfire, rest of the team can get the sentries down easily, bam, never heared complains there, but when it comes to customs, players tend to moan about needing a medic to push through... thats ridiculous
i´ve seen hoodoo 2-1 taken down even without ubers
about the lockdown by a red demo/soldier..
again, dustbowl, stage 1, left upper tunnel to 2nd point, can also be locked down easily by a demo... complaints there? no...
and i never regarded the area in the screenshots as unbalanced, i liked it for it´s variety
dustbowl 2-2, a single uber can win the last point, uber jumps in, pulls the sentryfire, rest of the team can get the sentries down easily, bam, never heared complains there, but when it comes to customs, players tend to moan about needing a medic to push through... thats ridiculous
i´ve seen hoodoo 2-1 taken down even without ubers
about the lockdown by a red demo/soldier..
again, dustbowl, stage 1, left upper tunnel to 2nd point, can also be locked down easily by a demo... complaints there? no...
I think that fix for the loft of 2-1 will work out quite well. Before it did offer a very interesting and challenging area to attack. But in the games I've played on Hoodoo it seems that its only really difficult to take if they have 2+ sentries up there and are actually trying to defend it. For a while it was common place for the match to end on that point, but not because the attackers couldn't capture it, but because they couldn't break out further down the hallway.
As for stage 3. I kinda like how that first corner is such a chokepoint, but it wouldn't hurt to add a crate next to that small platform that is sticking out to allow a player to jump up to the windows. On occasion I've jumped up on the bomb then over to that platform and then up to the window, yet that option is generally only available for a very limited amount of time.
As for stage 3. I kinda like how that first corner is such a chokepoint, but it wouldn't hurt to add a crate next to that small platform that is sticking out to allow a player to jump up to the windows. On occasion I've jumped up on the bomb then over to that platform and then up to the window, yet that option is generally only available for a very limited amount of time.
TracerDX
L3: Member
- Jun 9, 2009
- 127
- 26
The map does stall at 2-1 in even games. But that's sort of the point of a well balanced PL map. At mid-point, the attacking team really needs to be on the ball to deserve pushing any further. 2-1 is easily taken with a single uber-demo. I fail to see what's so hard about it. You don't even need to get up there to do it.
Its really after 2-1 that it gets "hard". That open area is usually filled with so many sentries its near impossible to get through without a decisive coordinated effort. But that's the point I thought. If you're just a gaggle of uncoordinate pubbers, you shouldn't be going past round 2.
Its really after 2-1 that it gets "hard". That open area is usually filled with so many sentries its near impossible to get through without a decisive coordinated effort. But that's the point I thought. If you're just a gaggle of uncoordinate pubbers, you shouldn't be going past round 2.
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pitto
L3: Member
- Feb 17, 2009
- 109
- 73
I missed the playtest last night, and was silly enough to try and download the updated version to have a look at the changes by changing the US server to it. Of course the file is no longer on the redirect so it couldn't download, and because of that I cant get into the server to change it to some other map :facepalm.
Someone who was on the play test (or has remote access) will have to change it to something else.
Very sorry if this inconveniences someone.
Someone who was on the play test (or has remote access) will have to change it to something else.
Very sorry if this inconveniences someone.
