*cough* SWAMP *cough*
It is a marsh afterall.
Mtn Lab had it.
A lot of swamp maps have it.
This has it.
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*cough* SWAMP *cough*
It is a marsh afterall.
Mtn Lab had it.
A lot of swamp maps have it.
This has it.
everyone likes it differently. I personally think it's great that the map is so narrow paths. this guarantees fast and hard action.
my opinion
Thanks. I have really enjoyed playing this map too. There are some areas outside near A and inside near B where the fights have a more open feel, but typically as you get closer and closer to the end the fights become more and more bottle necked. Its actually alot like Dustbowl. I love that feeling, and its generally what I was going for.
I typically repopulate my server once a night. Feel free to add me and perhaps we can get a good game going.
The blue spawn pretty boring to be stuck in. Maybe could you add some one way windows on the main door or on the walls?
Weird shadows.
Mirrored writing on the hot air balloon.
Z-fighting.
You may or may not want players here.
The cliff face isn't solid. You will die when falling, but it looks bad while doing it. It may be possible to get past the hurt triggers though with some tricky jumping, perhaps as scout.
TF2 usually doesn't make you jump to enter vents, even less duck jump. If you didn't want that for some reason just being able to walk in might be preferable, or at least being able to simply jump to enter on both ends.
The buildings outside this window appears and disappears as you move in this area. If it's going to be buggy it might as well be removed, showing only the sky.
You'd think one standard "CONTROL POINT" sign when exiting the spawn would be enough, but it isn't.
Thank you for your feedback! Pictures are always nice. Blu spawn is a bit dull now. With the solid doors and no windows it can feel a bit boring during the 90 second wait time. I actually have a plan for this. Always good to hear your feedback and know my change is going to be noticed.
Pic1: Those shadows will be fixed in the next release. Thanks.
Pic2: I have two billboards in view of that how air balloon as well both say red. I really didn't mind that the hot air balloon had mirrored writing. Always something to consider though.
Pic3: Nice find. Fixed immediately. Thanks.
Pic4: I don't mind players being there. Thank you in any case.
Pic5/6: Ill be adding some nodraw to those cliff faces so that when people die and fall they are better contained within the reachable area. I also don't like that dead bodies were going through the cliff as opposed to stacking up in the marsh.
Pic7: That height is intended. 'Ive not seen any players having a hard time getting into it and the exit on the other side allows players to see down into a little grouping where engis build from time to time.
Pic8/9: Not sure why that happens.
Pic10: I will be adding some function that illustrates to the players that they need to be going the other direction.
Thanks again for your feedback. Love when someone provides pics.
Fr0Z3n put it well:
Pl_Manngrove is set in an industrial swampland. With that in mind you'll find the outside fits its theme quite well. The area near point B is part of the facade that red has created to mask their rocket base. The area near C is themed to allow the player to know that progress has been made and that its not a simple distillery. Finally D was designed to let the player have the full reveal showing that it is in fact a rocket base after all. As a little easter egg the rocket is visible from the outside as well tucked away in the skybox. A keen player will see that the Red building is not all it seems from the opening fight. I'll try to add a picture to show later.
*edit* Here a pic:
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Image dump from some gameplay today:
My issue with the detailing outside is that the big brick buildings in skybox don't really fit rest of the theme. (That is really well made, by the way) You should make something more fitting with some brushwork, right now, those buildings just don't fit into rest of the theme.
Thanks. Yeah I may very well be replacing them soon. Brushwork may be better as the bricks are darker.
Like I said in chat, you can really only get away with rocks in the skybox if its night time, and/or they are silouhetted.
I still think the inside should be dimmer but more lighting emphasis on the path.
I still think the inside should be dimmer but more lighting emphasis on the path.
- Apr 9, 2008
- 1,706
- 1,491
The lighting inside is FAR too bright and has practically zero focus! It would be far better if you reduced the number of lights and utilised only a handful to focus the player towards the most important areas such as doorways, staircases, etc. I also think you need to up the shadow darkness for the light_env because it looks a little wishy-washy outside.
If you'd like, when I get a chance, I'll run through the map again and get screenshots of where the lighting could be better...
Hey! I wanted to note one thing that I think is important and I guess lots of people don't realise it.
Empty space is also a part of composition.
Everywhere. In painting, photography, music, everywhere.
Take a look:
The whole right side of this place is empty. Do you feel like it's missing something? Anything interesting on the far left? The mapper's goal was probably to focus player's eye on the cart and area around it, so he doesn't need much detail on the walls that are not important.
Take a look at this, what immediately gets your attention? The CP building. Take a look how detailed is it and how the lightning highlights it. And what about the rest? Bare cliff wall on the left. Does it need anything more?
One more. Can you see any detail on the rocks around the point? No. Because they are not important. Do you know what I mean?
I am writing this not to tell you that your detailing is wrong. Just tone it down. You don't need crates and barrels everywhere or windows in every wall and 150913 different textures. Your map is gonna look great if you'll make your detailing a bit more clear and simple, cause you know how to do it. You just do it too much.
Empty space is also a part of composition.
Everywhere. In painting, photography, music, everywhere.
Take a look:
I am writing this not to tell you that your detailing is wrong. Just tone it down. You don't need crates and barrels everywhere or windows in every wall and 150913 different textures. Your map is gonna look great if you'll make your detailing a bit more clear and simple, cause you know how to do it. You just do it too much.
Thanks sir! I really liked your work on mountainlab. Would love to hear your feedback.
-and-
Thanks I'm currently addressing this. Any thoughts/comments on specific areas where the lighting/detail could be improved would be nice of course.
Hey! I wanted to note one thing that I think is important and I guess lots of people don't realise it.
Empty space is also a part of composition.
Everywhere. In painting, photography, music, everywhere.
Take a look:
The whole right side of this place is empty. Do you feel like it's missing something? Anything interesting on the far left? The mapper's goal was probably to focus player's eye on the cart and area around it, so he doesn't need much detail on the walls that are not important.
Take a look at this, what immediately gets your attention? The CP building. Take a look how detailed is it and how the lightning highlights it. And what about the rest? Bare cliff wall on the left. Does it need anything more?
One more. Can you see any detail on the rocks around the point? No. Because they are not important. Do you know what I mean?
I am writing this not to tell you that your detailing is wrong. Just tone it down. You don't need crates and barrels everywhere or windows in every wall and 150913 different textures. Your map is gonna look great if you'll make your detailing a bit more clear and simple, cause you know how to do it. You just do it too much.
Thanks for your feedback! I certainly appreciate your comments. I am looking at certain areas where I can adjust the level of detail and focus the lighting to help guide players.
As far as the open feeling that's really not what i was going for with the map.
I guess some things that are important to point out in my opinion are that its not necessarily bad to have a high level of detail provided that the higher level if detail is consistent throughout. Just make sure you that your don't find themselves lost in a sea of details. Perhaps its better to say it this way... if you're going to increase the mean average in one area of the map you need to do so throughout the map. You should attempt to guide your players with light and by setting the important areas in your map as the outliers on the positive side of detail and your unimportant areas as the outliers with the least amount of detail. I hope this makes sense but...
Some screens to prove my point a little bit better:
ctf_doublecross has a very high mean average of detail. Valve did a great job creating a high amount of detail and then guiding the players to the important areas through a strong dichotomy of light/shadow:
pl_barnblitz has a high average of detail... how do players find their way around? Good signange and the track guides both blu and red players (in opposite directions) to each other.
plr_nightfall works the same way. It has a high average of detail, but the fact that the cart glows and paths lead players to the most important areas is important to note.
cp_mountainlab looks great and after playing the map a couple times (combined with good signage) players are able to find their way around quite easily.
Some areas on cp_gravilpit and cp_dustbowl work the same way:
I want you to understand that I'm certainly not trying to create a massive upheaval in how everyone looks at mapping or their own artpasses. I think peoples perception of density of detail here is overall pretty correct. I just think that people sometimes go a little overboard on detailing only certain areas instead of trying to make a pretty map that is not distracting.
In other words... I'm watching people play this map repeatedly. I've been recording demos/getting feedback/asking players/etc and VERY importantly (watching peoples crosshairs when they play the map). If players eyes consistently stray from the objectives then I'm doing it wrong, however if players enter the map and say "That's pretty!" or their 20'th time (or 100'th for that matter) playing the map say, "I never noticed that before, that's cool!" then I'm doing my job. Also please note: The map is not final yet.
Thanks again for all of your feedback!
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I am not sure what you are trying to tell us with your examples, the problem people are having is going overboard with detail and having large amount of it everywhere, even maps you show us as example, know where to stop. I personally don't have a problem with it as i haven't played the map yet, (so that opinion might change very quickly) but i can see where they are coming from and you really should think again before you shoot down all this feedback ton overdetailing.
No problem I suggest you do come play it with me! Would be fun I assure you. I guess I just need to clarify slightly. I love the feedback and I'm not saying that I'm correct and they are incorrect. It may be overdetailed in some areas...
I guess if i had to sum it up... I'm watching what players are doing instead of just what people are saying. If I find players have no idea where to go/whats important/where to look in the map then I need to add guidance through lighting, increased contrast of detail, signage, architecture, etc...
Overall I'm just watching what players are doing instead of just what people are saying. I may make adjustments based on both but the "doing" is more important than the "saying".
What if they have had personal playtest on it, or it was tested as extra on TF2M gameday.
You shouldn't split forum feedback into "Less important" category, it is quite bad idea, considering you can't be on every playtest this map will have and some people come tell their opinion here.
You shouldn't split forum feedback into "Less important" category, it is quite bad idea, considering you can't be on every playtest this map will have and some people come tell their opinion here.
I think that watching what your players do on your map is more important than what people say because well... Robin Walker literally gave me that advice...
Some key notes:
1. People often say something and it proves to accurately reflect what players do. So in this case they are the same.
2. When people play the map and I cant directly observer/watch a demo/whatever all I have to go on is what they say. So in this case that's my only feedback and therefor my most important form of feedback.
3. Its not uncommon for people to communicate what they do/find verbally (or by typing it). So again they aren't mutually exclusive.
4. All feedback is valid. Unless someone is clearly trolling or something then what they have to say should be taken into account... I'm not always right and I don't by any means assume I am. You can learn a lot more by doing something wrong and learning from it than you can by accidentally doing something right.
5. The map isn't done yet... I am looking at where players are getting confused when playing and adjusting those areas level of detail/lighting/signage/everything as we speak.
Some key notes:
1. People often say something and it proves to accurately reflect what players do. So in this case they are the same.
2. When people play the map and I cant directly observer/watch a demo/whatever all I have to go on is what they say. So in this case that's my only feedback and therefor my most important form of feedback.
3. Its not uncommon for people to communicate what they do/find verbally (or by typing it). So again they aren't mutually exclusive.
4. All feedback is valid. Unless someone is clearly trolling or something then what they have to say should be taken into account... I'm not always right and I don't by any means assume I am. You can learn a lot more by doing something wrong and learning from it than you can by accidentally doing something right.
5. The map isn't done yet... I am looking at where players are getting confused when playing and adjusting those areas level of detail/lighting/signage/everything as we speak.
Oh ya... and...
I really am listening, though, I may be playing a little bit of devils advocate. It's never a bad idea to consider all the angles.
Also I really do appreciate all of the feedback!
Wander
L3: Member
- Sep 16, 2010
- 148
- 55
I havent really played the map, but last night I was messing around in rc4 with a friend
We really liked the map, but ran into a few small things that i thought id post here (most things arent very important, but well)
The third round or so we ran into this error
A floating chimney in the spawndoor:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187002078765
http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187002079456
It wasnt just in my client, my friend saw the same thing, it was only for 1 round, the next round it was gone
Also, we managed 3 times to survive the explosion at the end, by standing crouched on the front of the payload when it falls down
The water looks a bit broken for me:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187007283135
My graphics are set quite low, so perhaps theres nothing to fix there
Also have some z-fighting (thats what its called right? when 2 textures cant decide which ones above the other) going on here:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187007282091
And as you can see a brush that sticks through the window frame
I also saw the bottom of some fence between B and C having a z-fight with the floor, but i cant remember where exactly
Something else I found slightly annoying: if blue manages to get to the payload that is still standing on B just before the time ends, overtime starts, but then theres that rotating ground part that makes the payload unpushable for more than 5 seconds, which makes the overtime win. This way blue loses, even though they managed to defend and push the card just in time
Perhaps to fix it, instead of making the card unpushable, set the speed to 0?
In red spawn when turning around: http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187007573945
The payload is visible that way, theres stairs there, and 2 door entrances, I thought it looked like it was possible to walk that way
Walking up the stairs works, but then even though theres nothing blocking it, ya cant walk any further
Perhaps have some stop-sign or something above those stairs?
Then the last thing I found a bit odd was the clipping at the rocks above the water, sometimes we were standing with our feet inside some rocks, and stickies would sometimes just fall through them
I think thats about it, i look forward to really playing the map with more ppl
We really liked the map, but ran into a few small things that i thought id post here (most things arent very important, but well)
The third round or so we ran into this error
A floating chimney in the spawndoor:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187002078765
http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187002079456
It wasnt just in my client, my friend saw the same thing, it was only for 1 round, the next round it was gone
Also, we managed 3 times to survive the explosion at the end, by standing crouched on the front of the payload when it falls down
The water looks a bit broken for me:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187007283135
My graphics are set quite low, so perhaps theres nothing to fix there
Also have some z-fighting (thats what its called right? when 2 textures cant decide which ones above the other) going on here:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187007282091
And as you can see a brush that sticks through the window frame
I also saw the bottom of some fence between B and C having a z-fight with the floor, but i cant remember where exactly
Something else I found slightly annoying: if blue manages to get to the payload that is still standing on B just before the time ends, overtime starts, but then theres that rotating ground part that makes the payload unpushable for more than 5 seconds, which makes the overtime win. This way blue loses, even though they managed to defend and push the card just in time
Perhaps to fix it, instead of making the card unpushable, set the speed to 0?
In red spawn when turning around: http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187007573945
The payload is visible that way, theres stairs there, and 2 door entrances, I thought it looked like it was possible to walk that way
Walking up the stairs works, but then even though theres nothing blocking it, ya cant walk any further
Perhaps have some stop-sign or something above those stairs?
Then the last thing I found a bit odd was the clipping at the rocks above the water, sometimes we were standing with our feet inside some rocks, and stickies would sometimes just fall through them
I think thats about it, i look forward to really playing the map with more ppl
I havent really played the map, but last night I was messing around in rc4 with a friend
We really liked the map, but ran into a few small things that i thought id post here (most things arent very important, but well)
The third round or so we ran into this error
A floating chimney in the spawndoor:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187002078765
http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187002079456
It wasnt just in my client, my friend saw the same thing, it was only for 1 round, the next round it was gone
Also, we managed 3 times to survive the explosion at the end, by standing crouched on the front of the payload when it falls down
The water looks a bit broken for me:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187007283135
My graphics are set quite low, so perhaps theres nothing to fix there
Also have some z-fighting (thats what its called right? when 2 textures cant decide which ones above the other) going on here:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187007282091
And as you can see a brush that sticks through the window frame
I also saw the bottom of some fence between B and C having a z-fight with the floor, but i cant remember where exactly
Something else I found slightly annoying: if blue manages to get to the payload that is still standing on B just before the time ends, overtime starts, but then theres that rotating ground part that makes the payload unpushable for more than 5 seconds, which makes the overtime win. This way blue loses, even though they managed to defend and push the card just in time
Perhaps to fix it, instead of making the card unpushable, set the speed to 0?
In red spawn when turning around: http://steamcommunity.com/id/WanderG/screenshot/559795187007573945
The payload is visible that way, theres stairs there, and 2 door entrances, I thought it looked like it was possible to walk that way
Walking up the stairs works, but then even though theres nothing blocking it, ya cant walk any further
Perhaps have some stop-sign or something above those stairs?
Then the last thing I found a bit odd was the clipping at the rocks above the water, sometimes we were standing with our feet inside some rocks, and stickies would sometimes just fall through them
I think thats about it, i look forward to really playing the map with more ppl
Great feedback...
About the Chimney... I have no idea why this would happen never seen it happen before. Wonder why that would happen. Ill have a look at it.
The water needs to be fixed. Its not your PC. It will 100% be in the next release.
Ill move the func_hurt downward to make sure it kills you next time.
I am currently cleaning up all of the Z-fighting that I see. Your input sure helps.
That's a really good point... I hadn't thought about Blu losing the fight after B due to the cart being disabled. I setup the entities how it was in Barnblitz... I bet they have the same potential issue. I've never seen this happen. Great find either way!
Perhaps a sign there saying that says the cp is <---- that way could be good. Haven't seen anyone really try to walk that way because you spawn forward and there is a door... but I guess Ill keep my eye on it and see if it's needed.
Thanks again!
Thanks sir! I really liked your work on mountainlab. Would love to hear your feedback.
-and-
Thanks I'm currently addressing this. Any thoughts/comments on specific areas where the lighting/detail could be improved would be nice of course.
Thanks for your feedback! I certainly appreciate your comments. I am looking at certain areas where I can adjust the level of detail and focus the lighting to help guide players.
As far as the open feeling that's really not what i was going for with the map.
I guess some things that are important to point out in my opinion are that its not necessarily bad to have a high level of detail provided that the higher level if detail is consistent throughout. Just make sure you that your don't find themselves lost in a sea of details. Perhaps its better to say it this way... if you're going to increase the mean average in one area of the map you need to do so throughout the map. You should attempt to guide your players with light and by setting the important areas in your map as the outliers on the positive side of detail and your unimportant areas as the outliers with the least amount of detail. I hope this makes sense but...
Some screens to prove my point a little bit better:
ctf_doublecross has a very high mean average of detail. Valve did a great job creating a high amount of detail and then guiding the players to the important areas through a strong dichotomy of light/shadow:
pl_barnblitz has a high average of detail... how do players find their way around? Good signange and the track guides both blu and red players (in opposite directions) to each other.
plr_nightfall works the same way. It has a high average of detail, but the fact that the cart glows and paths lead players to the most important areas is important to note.
cp_mountainlab looks great and after playing the map a couple times (combined with good signage) players are able to find their way around quite easily.
Some areas on cp_gravilpit and cp_dustbowl work the same way:
I want you to understand that I'm certainly not trying to create a massive upheaval in how everyone looks at mapping or their own artpasses. I think peoples perception of density of detail here is overall pretty correct. I just think that people sometimes go a little overboard on detailing only certain areas instead of trying to make a pretty map that is not distracting.
In other words... I'm watching people play this map repeatedly. I've been recording demos/getting feedback/asking players/etc and VERY importantly (watching peoples crosshairs when they play the map). If players eyes consistently stray from the objectives then I'm doing it wrong, however if players enter the map and say "That's pretty!" or their 20'th time (or 100'th for that matter) playing the map say, "I never noticed that before, that's cool!" then I'm doing my job. Also please note: The map is not final yet.
Thanks again for all of your feedback!
I think it's important to distinguish the difference between custom content and official Valve content, as official custom content doesn't always follow the design ethics Valve adere to; such as density of detail. Mountain lab is a clear example of over saturation of detail and i never play it because i always get stuck on minor detail clipping/vphysics and playing the map actually feels mentally exhuasting as my brain has to calculate all the visual data in my peripherals rather than filling in simple blanks. It's a nice looking map but it's confusing visually and plays badly solely because of the unchecked level of detail. It'is worth noting that it's not a map by Valve, but community made.
I also want to point out that CTF are some of the most detailed maps because:
A) Everyone understands the objective. Detail does not get in the way.
B) They are some of the smallest maps and can afford the data usage.
C) Because the map is so small and the objective so basic there is not an overload of visual information.
Barnblitz is in a similar boat, it was not directly made by Valve and has certain counter-intuitive nuances against TF2 design philosophy. It's not necasserily got a high level of a detail but it is messy. Just because a map is official does not make it a good example to follow. Detailing is not a means to and end, Dustbowl and Badwater are argueably the least detailed maps produced by Valve and yet also 2 of the most popular.
I realise perhaps i'm beating a dead horse with a stick and you've already got the idea, enough people have re-iterated the same point; but i don't want you to get the wrong idea when you cite maps like mountain lab, barnblitz or doublecross and take conclusions away from it without looking at the bigger picture. Each map has case by case nuances that relate to both size, scale, game mode and theme. Also, whether it was produced by Valve or the community; as community maps tend to have certain personal, amatuer understandings on the TF2 theme and lore that aren't always 100% accurate.
Even 2fort which is considered to have the greatest density of detail out of all the existing Valve maps has areas as bland as this:
Also what you need to realise is that a player's eye is not necasserily where the crosshair is; i know for a fact that my eye jots around the screen when playing as i pass by multiple doorways. My crosshair is where i predict the most likely threat will come from or where i am most vulnerable but not necasserily directly where i am looking. It's more important to note where people are not looking as these are things players are missing; hidden threats and hidden pathways.
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Never hurts to get more input. I guess I should just sum it all up to say this...
I'm adjusting and carefully looking at the level of detail and lighting on my map for its next release, but you can expect it to have an average density of detail that is far higher than badwater and more in line with mountainlab, nightfall, and doublecross.
I'm adjusting and carefully looking at the level of detail and lighting on my map for its next release, but you can expect it to have an average density of detail that is far higher than badwater and more in line with mountainlab, nightfall, and doublecross.