(WIP) pl_smoke

[Ida]

I just put a RED overlay on top of the BLU overlay. I doubted it would work, but...apparently it did.

EDIT: I'll go ahead and put together a "stuff to do before alpha release" list, just...because.

The Official Stuff To Do Before Alpha Is Released List For PL Smoke

- That leak is driving me nuts, but I've got to fix it
- Floorplate under a door has disappeared
- Get the cart to be at the correct height
- Make it so that time is added when the first cap is taken
- Make BLU win when time is up
- Make the BLU respawn room look acceptable
- Fix a really stupid problem in the RED base, where, due to lack of space,
you have to crouch to go up a set of stairs
- A bit of clipping

I really am a perfectionist, ain't I?

 

[Uriak]

You can even precise Z order into the overlay properties

 

[YM]

overlays have a render order, you can stack 3 (might be 4) overlays on top of each other in the order you specify

 

[Ida]

Oh yeah, and is it possible to have an admin change my topic title? The name is no longer TBC, so "(WIP) pl_smoke" would be a better name, I guess.

 

[Ida]

Update: Leaks are now gone, everything works like a charm. Except the "beeow-beeow" alarm at the end (try describing it better yourself >.>) keeps repeating when the round is won by RED. When that's fixed, a1 will be released. Hopefully in time for a Gameday submission.

EDIT: Ok, no Gameday test, it's not polished enough. I need to fix cubemaps, HDR and that annoying sound bug that pretty much ruined any chance of submitting this map before deadline.

 

[Ida]

Alright, got rid of the nasty sound problem.

Alpha 1 is here!
http://forums.tf2maps.net/downloads.php?do=file&id=512

 

[Nineaxis]

I'm going to have to download it for a quick look around just because I saw my posters in three of the eight screenshots.

 

[Ida]

I think I've used them 4 places total, in fact. I was going to use a fifth, but I decided that would probably be a bit too much.

I think I'm going to hold off a2 until I can get some proper playtesting (I guess that would be on the next Gameday). Until then, I'll be working on a side project.

 

[Nineaxis]

I doubt there could possibly be too much.

I'll remember to post here when I update all those posters to the better design concept I've started doing. But anyway, some comments:

Everything is that blue wall. It's kind of... boring to see that much of it.

Your roofs look way too thick. Valve's are either 4 or 8 units thick (can't remember exactly right now), and have the I-beam texture on the sides.

Shouldn't there be a resupply cabinet on the lower floor of the BLU base? Rather than having them run upstairs to get some health. Of course, playtesting will probably better show whether or not this is an issue.

Another issue playtesting will probably show is that with the setup time and location of RED's spawn, it looks like there won't be a way for them to get out without 4 spies trying to sap everything.

It's a neat layout and concept, just needs some tweaking.

 

[Ida]

The blue wall is a problem, and it needs to be toned down a lot. That's something I'll think about for beta, though, when I really start worrying about visuals.

I took notice of the thick roofs long ago, but I didn't prioritize it, so it kind of slipped off my (mental) priority list. Thanks for reminding me about that.

As for the BLU resupply cabinet, I intentionally avoided putting a one on the lower level to give BLU a harder time defending, because I feared that it would be a bit too easy. But yes, playtesting will show.

I'm afraid the issue with RED's spawn will be another issue that has to be solved after some playtesting, but there could always be some truth in that. Honestly, I'm not sure what to think about it, but I think the setup times are necessary for BLU to form a good defense. Well, I guess I could decrease them to 50 seconds, maybe.

 

[Spacemonkeynz]

I played this on the YinYar server the other day.

Good work so far.
However is far too hard for Red, I actully think this would work better without a setup timer, give Red a head start.

I still don't like red/blu swapped around, just feels wrong.

 

[Chilly]

I played this on YinYarr server as well. Hmm, actually I loaded it. Anyway, I agree with Spacemonkey. We had good people on both sides but a heavy, demoman, and engineer were able to completely lock down the second room without even trying too hard while the rest of the defenders went and spammed around the spawn area.

If this is stage 1 of a multi-stage map, I'd suggest removing the defender's access to the upper levels. Possibly do this with a one-way gate, similar to the first 2 stages of Dustbowl. Reducing the setup time and adding windows (or normal gates instead of doors) to the attackers spawn would also help, since they'd be able to exit the spawn easier.

Finally, the red/blue swap was definitely throwing people off. I understand your reasoning, but I still disagree with it. I think it's actually detrimental to the map.

 

[Ida]

Thanks a lot for the playtesting, that really helps a lot.

Well, you've convinced me about the setup time. I'll at least reduce it to 50. Maybe 40?

As for the difficulties RED were having, that's going to be hard to get right...but I just knew it was coming.

I've been thinking about adding a one-way door to the lower shortcut (the one that exits on the lower part of the wooden structure). What stopped me from doing it is that Scouts can double jump over to that shortcut from the BLU spawn, so I didn't want to ruin that for them. Of course, now I see that I pretty much have to add one.

Removing the defenders' access to the upper area would be a little too harsh on BLU, I think. They would have NO chance of getting spies in there to sap and stab the attackers, leaving the spies no choice but to spawnkill. Of course, if you're talking about access via that wooden structure, I could always remove the hole that allows skilled rocket jumpers to get up there. Constant soldiers infesting your forward base isn't something you want, true.

Chilly, what you're saying about only a couple of teammates locking down the second area is interesting. Do you by any chance have any demos? Or could you tell me about some specific spots or strategies that were too powerful for RED in that area? As for the spawnkilling, I assume that was caused by the last area being too easy to lock down, meaning people would seek adventure further into the map.

And, of course, that problem with RED and BLU being switched...honestly, it's not yet too late to change it. A (huge) texture change and some altering of my design plans is all I need to do to change it, so if it really confuses people that much, I'm willing to change it around.

Once again, great to hear that somebody's been playing it, I guess I should pay this server a visit if I catch Smoke on there.

 

[Spacemonkeynz]

With the red spawn, maybe have the exits further apart (not to sure how you would build that in)
Also maybe have an 'inner' spawn (like in 2fort, where the players spawn, and a 'outer' spawn, with windows, so red players can see where the Blu players are waiting.

However, don't put the windows near the door, otherwise Blu will know when I red player is about to exit.

or maybe have the 'inner' spawn underground, and comes up to exits either side of the area.

Here is an awesomely detailed paint diagram

Excuse my poor artist skills, but hopefully you get the idea. There are lots of different things you can try.

It's just at the moment, the red spawn is pretty cramped, sticking it underground gives you all the room you want, plus you can give it the spytech look, while the exits can have the wooden shack look.

 

[Ida]

I guess I should do something about the RED spawn, yeah, and that's not a bad idea at all. I'm not sure if I actually got all these ideas right in my head, but if I did, here's what I think I should do:

- I'll change the doors in RED's spawn to the see-through gates used in pretty much all maps with a setup time.
- I'll leave the current spawn shack as it is (but move around some junk), but now it will be used as a "waiting room" à la BLU's in Gold Rush stage 1. In other words, players don't actually spawn there, and defenders can shoot bullets into it (maybe?).
- I'll add two small, spytech-themed rooms as you suggested, each exiting into the area where the bomb is (via standard, not see-through slide doors that close again) and the "waiting room".

Does that sound just about right? It should give RED plenty of exits and remove any feeling of a cramped spawn room.

EDIT: Starting work on possible solutions to all my problems now in Hammer.

EDIT 2: Gates have now been added to the lower alternate route. There is one at the entrance to the corridor, that triggers and stays open when the first point is capped, and a one-way door at the other end (like in Dustbowl stage 1, point 2), leading to the lower part of the wooden structure.
I have also removed the hole that would let Soldiers get from the lower part of the wooden structure to the upper part, which would let them enter the upper shortcut.

 

[Ida]

Well, now I've added an "inner" spawn room, while keeping the original spawn building as it is (except I switched the old doors for see-through gates). I don't know if I should add a second "inner" spawn, because, come on, that's four exits! That should be plenty.

With these new changes, I hope I'll have fixed at least part of the problems that arose from the recent comments. I have a feeling that the last part may still be a bit to hard, but there are lots of alphas to come, so I guess I could release alpha 2 tomorrow or something.

EDIT: I'm also considering turning the concrete staircase right next to RED spawn around, so that it will take longer for BLU to enter RED's upper shortcut that way, not to mention it will be risky since anyone could exit the spawn at any time.

 

[Chilly]

Chilly, what you're saying about only a couple of teammates locking down the second area is interesting. Do you by any chance have any demos? Or could you tell me about some specific spots or strategies that were too powerful for RED in that area? As for the spawnkilling, I assume that was caused by the last area being too easy to lock down, meaning people would seek adventure further into the map.

http://yinyarr.com/Automatic_Demos.aspx
We record/post SourceTV demos of all the games, so it's on there. There was a slight lack of teamwork by the attackers, but I think that's partially due to not having a good area to set up an attack. Those 1-way halls are generally great for that.

Correct about the spawnkilling as well. It's like Dustbowl... the more secure your team is at the rear point, the more they'll push forward at the attacker's spawn. Your stage is relatively small which made it that much more obvious.

I think the small pool needs a bit of work as well. It's perfectly rectangular, which makes it look a bit strange.

Once again, great to hear that somebody's been playing it, I guess I should pay this server a visit if I catch Smoke on there.

Add me on Steam and I'll let you know when we load it up:
http://steamcommunity.com/id/chillywi
Most of our players don't mind coming on to play a map if we know the mapper is going to be there. That way we can tell them how awful they are and things like that.

 

[Chilly]

I also forgot to add another comment... the tall side walls seem a bit bare. I'd recommend looking at what Spacemonkey did in the last room of stage 1 in pl_cave. There's a bump-out fake room that really adds a lot of personality to the room without being too difficult. Right now your 2 rooms just feel like 2 big rooms, but if you added some additional balconies, roofs, windows, etc it'll look more like 2 courtyards between a bunch of buildings. Here's some examples, but I don't think you'd need to go to this extent of detail and I think you could make it work with the industrial theme by changing roof angles, adding a smokestack, etc.

 

[cornontheCoD]

looks like you've thought a lot about this map, and put a lot of work into it. I haven't downloaded it yet, so I can't wait to try it on gameday!

 

[Ida]

Nice, I'm gonna watch that demo now.

I've actually thought a bit about making the last point slightly longer, and after watching the demo, I'll probably come up with something to make it harder to defend.

Ah, yes, the pool. It is a bit rectangular for sure, I guess I should make it look nicer. I have all my plans for prettying up the map scheduled for beta, though.

Added you to Steam as well. Windows, smokestacks (fun fact: I was planning to put some of them in the map, which was the inspiration for the name ) and stuff like that will also come in the future. I have some plans, and some of those pictures fit perfectly. Thanks a lot for the help!

Aaand, thanks for the comment, Cornon.