KotH Watermill final

Made by Loc_n_lol

  1. Loc_n_lol

    Loc_n_lol L10: Glamorous Member

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    A somewhat small and open, alpine-themed koth map where the control point resides in a building (the map's namesake) that sits in the middle of a river. Lots of flanking opportunities.

    Obligatory credits :
    -Sky texture based on Void's fever sky (part of the swamp pack).
    -Computer Screen Bank by Void and Rexy.

    14/07/2010 : a3 started over
    31/07/2010 : a4
    -added walkway from riverside to stairs
    -narrowed down overall size by 96units on each side (shorter bridges)
    -reworked the stairs to the upper ledge, incidentally, "garage" rooftop is much easier to access
    -added a second stairway to the upper ledge, from inside the building
    -rearranged spawn exits
    -areaportals, occluders, etc...
    -a little more health&ammo in more obvious locations
    -added cover around the point and into the small building between the bridges to make the fighting more interesting at this level and cut sniper sightlines from one side to the other
    -lighting tweaks

    05/08/2010 : a4b
    -increased cap time : from 15 to 24s (viaduct setting)
    -clipped stairs, climbable wooden props

    14/08/2010 : a5
    -Stretched the cap building 96 units on each side (the whole map is 192 units longer)
    -New alternate path on the right side, mostly for sneak-behind classes.
    -Reworked fences on the point so you don't get stuck in them while backpedalling. You can also no longer throw grenades above the fences to enemies on the other side.
    -Lowered the angle of the roof and reduced the size of the hole so you have to expose yourself to shoot down the hole on the point. You can also no longer shoot rockets through the hole to the bridges.
    -Added protective fence in front of the side ledge on the cap building.
    -Added arrow signs pointing up next to the wheel
    -Added a ledge on the wooden bridge to make it easier to jump on the lower path, jump on the wheel as a scout, on the roof as a soldier, or jump there from the roof as any class.
    -Removed low fences where they were getting in the way.
    -Lightning tweaks.

    05/09/2010 : b1
    -detail !
    -Added a small ledge and staircase in the buildings next to the control point to test as a possible forward base/ambush location
    06/09/2010 : b1a
    -cubemaps :facepalm:

    04/12/2010 : b2
    -Increased water transparency to make it easier to avoid underwater players that can shoot you while being hard to spot.
    -No more stairway to "nowhere"
    -Lowered cap time and losing team's respawn timer by a small amount
    -Minor health/ammo distribution tweaks.
    -Retextured most buildings (middle buildings now look dirtier and older), the team-colors on wooden buildings are less obvious, but it's still easy to tell which side is which.
    -Some optimization improvements all over the place, but no miracles.
    -Minor graphic improvements.

    12/12/2010 : b3
    -Tweaked health and ammo pickups again to move it a little farther from the spawns. Added small ammo packs near the point.
    -Spawn doors trigger from a larger distance, making spawncamping with sticky traps on the door less effective (if you detonate when the door opens, the person that triggered the door will take no damage).
    -Revision of various elements of detailing, stair step size, overlays, some props and lights, etc
    -Improved base colour recognition, particularly on the BLU side.
    -The ground will no longer force you out of the water in the middle of the river.
    -Lighting tweaks for HDR compile.
    -Point capture time increased back to default.

    27/02/2011 : b4
    -Testing removal of anti-sniper fences on the ledges surrounding the point
    -More optimization, lighting and detailing tweaks

    29/05/2011 : final
    -The crate jumping mini-game on the right side has been replaced by a proper ramp
    -Fixed stickies unsticking in some places
    -Finalized prop lighting and stuff
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2011
  2. Loc_n_lol

    Loc_n_lol L10: Glamorous Member

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    9 months later : thrown away the old layout and restarted from scratch, with the same basic premise.
     
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    Last edited: Sep 4, 2010
  3. JMRboosties

    JMRboosties L2: Junior Member

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    i like the waterwheel you made
     
  4. Loc_n_lol

    Loc_n_lol L10: Glamorous Member

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    Alright, since the map was actually sneaked in after the gameday thanks to unknown uploader (Okrag ?) I'll sumarize what I've gathered, if anyone has anything else to say, better now than later :)

    -Not packed the swamp texture used.
    -Lacks healthpacks or existing healthpacks are out of sight.
    -Climbing the wheel to get on the roof is tricky at best, needs clipping and more space.
    -Make it possible to access the stairs to the cp without falling in the water.
    -I've seen alot of snipers, that was kinda expected since there are long sightlines, but I'm unsure how effective they actually were. The basic idea was that snipers should kill people standing on the roof and each other while the main force pushes in up close.
    -I guess the layout of the 'base' should be simplified, the s-shaped path was there for visblocking but probably won't be needed.
    -I'm also wondering what people think of the size. Too big ? Initially we were only 7vs7 I think and it felt kinda empty.
     
  5. Jack Riguel

    Jack Riguel L10: Glamorous Member

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    heh.


    I liked the size of the map, however some of your indoor areas (the building immediately outside of spawn) seemed to be a tad too windy and enclosed, not a whole lot of space to maneuver in.

    As for the snipers, the biggest problem was the high ledge. It's tricky for the opposing team to access it since it's only stairwell is right outside of spawn. There should be a second way up inside the building itself.

    Other then that I found it a pretty simple and enjoyable map.
     
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  6. alecom

    alecom L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    I felt the point was too easy to defend; the roof gave defenders a huge advantage and the routes on to the point were all chokepoints.

    I am not a fan of that roof (above the control point), nor have I ever been of a similar use in koth maps. I can't explain it, so it probably doesn't hold much weight - but I don't feel it's good for balance. If the roof is a whole lot more accessible (by which I mean ramps, not just jumping up the wheel) then maybe I would be more partial towards it.

    With the water, I would prefer a gradual exit/entrance out of the water i.e. a boat slipway, and definitely agree with the access to the stairs without having to go in the water.

    Don't feel obliged to change it just because of my opinion though ;)
     
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  7. Loc_n_lol

    Loc_n_lol L10: Glamorous Member

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    Updated to a4, implementing most of the suggested changes and others. I've revised ammo/health placement, overall there is more, in smaller, better distributed stacks. I'm still reluctant to put anything too close to the spawn (encourages spawn camping by the other team) and too close to the point (you need a reason to retreat, or to put dispenser here) :/
     
  8. Loc_n_lol

    Loc_n_lol L10: Glamorous Member

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    Gameday bump and quick minor update (a4b).
    Just watched the demo (you really miss a ton of stuff when playing...). Overall I'm quite satisfied with how it played. It seems that people were using the rooftops reasonably often, without it becoming the center of the attention.

    Someone pointed out that the cap was too fast. Personally I rather like that the point switches back and forth but it's true that it was significantly faster to cap than on Valve's viaduct, so I tweaked that, at least for now.
    Also clipped the stairs as pointed out.

    There's one "route" I didn't see anyone use, though it's quite anecdotal. As a scout you can double jump from the wood pile to the mill's ledge like this :
    [​IMG]
    I don't know if it's not obvious enough or just not useful.

    Anything to add ?
     
  9. squintik

    squintik L2: Junior Member

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    I think it played quite well, the map size was ok, the point was changing side often (but not too much), and fights were not so repetitive.
    I think main issues are :
    - people nearly always used the same path (left one) when going to the CP, so it's a little bit repetitive and there's a lot of unused areas. (the whole building in the middle in front of the spawn, and outdoor areas in general)
    - fights are nearly always in (or around) the CP building, so even if ennemies took the point, you just try to get to the building (roof or inside) and kill them. So there's not so much middle-range / long-range fights (for example, it would be nice to have some fights between the CP building and the big building in the middle in front of the spawn)
    - the roof is fun for soldiers and demomans, but other classes have a hard time getting there so it can be frustrating sometimes (for example, as a heavy, if you see a soldier on the roof, you just cannot do anything).
    I think it could be nice to add an "easy" access to the roof, or add another roof (close to the watermill one) from where you can attack the watermill roof.

    Some other small suggestions :
    [​IMG]
    (from left to right)
    - if you add a place on the left path, it could give scouts another double jump possibility to jump on the watermill wheel, and be a nice spot to defend/attack.
    It could also help people use different path, as you can easily jump on the stairs from here (when entering the left building, you generally just run forward as it feels like a long corridor before reaching the bridge leading to the CP).
    - for your double jump path (with the planks), perhaps just adding some railings there (with some broken things so that you can easily jump on this, and easily drop down in the water). It would help players better see this path (from the bottom, you don't easily see that there's something there, probably because the wall behind has the same texture.
    Also, you should perhaps break the railings (or add an object to easily walk on the railing) at the beginning of the first jump (to go on the planks) to help players understand they can easily jump on the planks from there :)
    By the way, it could be a nice idea to make this place (from where you can walk on the wheel) bigger, with some covers, to have a nice forward defense spot (you capture the CP, then you go there to attack people in the building in front of you)
    - I think it would be nice to have a path on the right (so that every classes can reach the CP by here). Perhaps an exposed path (so you know it's not so safe, but you can try to surprise ennemies from here).
    So perhaps just move the small building (which has nearly no use at the moment) close to the water and find something (small bridge or something to jump on from the roof, etc...) to reach the CP from here.

    Oh and why not make the wheel turn so that you can just go in it from the water, and wait until the wheel helps you reach the roof ? :p

    I'll stop there, hoping these feedbacks were clear ... but anyway, it's already a good start for a koth map !
     
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  10. Loc_n_lol

    Loc_n_lol L10: Glamorous Member

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    I'm taking note of this and I'll see what I can do but it all sounds very reasonable.
    I don't know if it was clear or not during playtest that the wheel more or less acts as a ramp that any class can use to get on the roof with 2 normal jumps, you don't even have to stop running. I've seen some people do it, others may not have figured it out immediately. It's not as easy as for demos and solys, but it can help dislodge them if they get annoying.

    Yes, I can see how that is a problem and I'll see what I can do with your path idea, but to me that's already an improvement over the previous version : it was supposed to be the main path, with the most cover and the supplies. Before, people who couldn't jump on the roof just jumped in the water and climbed on the stairs most of the time.

    Well, the thing is, initially it was like that, but the wheel would randomly crush you (or get stuck if it didn't crush) and that was offline... also it was unfair to one team because the wheel does not turn in the same direction depending on which side you are (and it would be extremely illogical to have it turn against the river's flow on one side :p)

    Bot engineers certainly seemed to think it should be the case because they would almost always put a mostly useless and easily destroyed sentry here. That's why at some point I considered widening the watermill a bit, so that this part would end up closer to the buildings on the other side, I'm just not sure it's worth the trouble.
     
  11. Ninjilla

    Ninjilla L7: Fancy Member

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    Speaking of the point itself, I was getting the crap kicked out of my by demo men, there are two fence props on each side of the point, and I think cutting the small one or clipping it so people dont get snagged is needed, I would often try and run backwards and shoot a demo men only to get snagged and die. The point is rather small already, so splash damage is pretty effective.

    Also as a note, I was a a soldier on the roof on defense, and we held it rather well and I got buff banner full more often than I expected to (and Im a bad soldier), tone down the effectiveness maybe? People just cant react fast enough when I am pounding rockets on them as they enter the point building. Possibly stairs going over the water wheel to the roof would be good.
     
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  12. Loc_n_lol

    Loc_n_lol L10: Glamorous Member

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    Yeah I see what you mean, I'll modify those "fences" so you don't get stuck on them. I should also probably widen the point a bit, I'm just not sure by how much and if I should widen the river and the rest of the amp with it or not.


    Well that was kind of the idea, if you control the roof, you pretty much control the point. The wheel already acts as 'stairs' to the roof and any class can get there reasonably easily (except a spinned heavy). I just need to figure out a way to make it obvious. Maybe an arrow sign pointing up near the wheel ?
     
  13. alecom

    alecom L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    Control of a point should be on the control point.
    IMO.
     
  14. Ninjilla

    Ninjilla L7: Fancy Member

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    The river seems fine if memory serves me right just the point needs a little widening. And yes, arrows showing you can go up the wheel would be great, as I found it by accidentally bumping into the wheel.
     
  15. Exist

    Exist L6: Sharp Member

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    I'd find it funny if there was a sign telling you not to touch the mill, but is painted over or beaten up baddly by gun fire
     
  16. Loc_n_lol

    Loc_n_lol L10: Glamorous Member

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  17. Mr.Late

    Mr.Late L7: Fancy Member

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    This was a very nice koth map. CP looked awesome!

    I don't know how to improve this... Just add clipping, tweak ammo/health and texturing and it will be very good!
     
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  18. Loc_n_lol

    Loc_n_lol L10: Glamorous Member

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    Detailing ongoing. I'm almost done with the playable area. Now I need to do the rest too before another release because it kinda looks silly from angles where you can directly see the 2 skybox. :p

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2010
  19. Loc_n_lol

    Loc_n_lol L10: Glamorous Member

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    More screens, and I think I can now officially slap the beta sticker on it.

    RED side
    [​IMG]

    BLU side
    [​IMG]

    Overview
    [​IMG]

    CP
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Misc
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  20. Prestige

    aa Prestige im not gay anymore

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    On gameday, it was too hard to recap and there was a LOT of long sightlines. i think the reason that it was hard to recap was because there was only 2 ways that the attackers could take to the point due to some one-way drops for defenders (D:). There was also only one way to the roof they could take.

    I would recommend another path for attackers to the roof, and to the point.

    [​IMG]

    alternatively, you could connect the stairs to the overhead thing on the path.
     
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