Valve competitive and cp_gorge

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by hutty, Feb 25, 2017.

  1. hutty

    aa hutty

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    Is it just me or does cp_gorge work well in valve's competitive. Like, really well.

    The 2cp format solves the 6s-meta-is-broken-by-unlocks issue by making the map better for heavy and engie, and thus also better for pyro, sniper, and spy as a result. The game doesn't slow to an infinite stalemate like 5cp due to the timers, the control points remove the chore that payload has in 6s, and the setup time gets rid of any issues caused by heavy's move speed or engie's preparedness.

    I know 2cp is despised in overwatch, but many of those issues are cause with the high prevalence of ults and reliable mid-range damage, which TF2 doesn't have to deal with (besides ubers).

    Maybe I'm wrong but in the past two days I've been playing a lot of valve Competitive and I'm always happy when cp_gorge comes up. It used to be one of my least favorite maps, now I love it.
     
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    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
  2. Star Bright

    Star Bright L2: Junior Member

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    Coming from someone who plays no competitive TF2 but has a ton of hours in Overwatch, I agree. Plus, the reliability of stall in Overwatch makes 2cp actually one of the worst game modes. Plus, the whole "respawn wave" mechanic and the fact that it's geared toward attackers in TF2 rather than the I think static 10 second respawn timer in Overwatch means attackers actually have a chance, so you get to see more rounds / more strategies than "block the point with invulnerability abilities".
    I'm curious why Payload is so despised though, when it's sort of the other way around for the two games.
     
  3. hutty

    aa hutty

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    two people replied while i was typing this post, I reposed it below.
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2017
  4. MegapiemanPHD

    aa MegapiemanPHD Doctorate in Deliciousness

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    Why is it that Comp has settled on 5cp and KOTH over the years? I've always found Attack and Defend to be a lot of fun but competitive TF2 seems to only focus on the 5cp and KOTH game types. I know they used to do A&D a bit in the past but not anymore for some reason. Is it because 5cp and KOTH let each team both attack and defend within the same round or do those game modes have more variety in how they can be played?
     
  5. Messing Around

    Messing Around L5: Dapper Member

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    competitive players don't like to play against Heavy, Pyro or Sentry (I don't either), because those classes are just simply very annoying to play against, 5cp mode allow them to get rid of that type of things

    not just that, but also the A/D is very boring to play, Blu gathering around then push, if they failed then wait till they respawn and do that again, instead of a back-and-forth play on 5cp or koth

    and mostly A/D maps always very choky for defending, and less strategic
     
  6. hutty

    aa hutty

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    Interesting points

    Part of it is the payload maps are too large for 6s, and part of it is you can walk faster than the payload moves so it is somewhat of a chore. In Overwatch payload is liked better because it tracks the payload's exact distance, giving attackers more leniency, with cp you either get none, half, or all of the map, however with payload pushing 3/5 of the map is doable. TF2 doesn't work that way, it instead tracks the points you captured with the cart.

    Also the payload carts on overwatch are larger and don't have the glitch network related stutter issues the ones in TF2 do, so being on and around the payload is more pleasant and provides usable high ground.

    As for re-spawn waves, overwatch has ults that charge over time and having a changing re-spawn time could potentially loose people games, regardless of that grouping up is important in both games in order for teamplay to work out.

    As for the 2cp, alot of the problems overwatch has with it simply don't exist on gorge. In Overwatch while defending, if you loose 2 players in the team fight, you lost first point, respawn times + map length makes it impossible to get back to the point in time to save it on any of the 2cp maps. The inverse is true for the last point. Players from the defending team will be piling onto it during overtime while the attacking team is at a huge disadvantage for reinforcements. There is a character that can build teleporters to solve this issue (Symmetra) but if you run symmetra, you lost the team fight before it started. (even after the buff, your still basically a pyro in a game that has assault rifles).

    TF2 cp_gorge doesn't have these issues for several reasons.
    1. is engie, he can build infinitely usable teleporters that are easily repaired if destroyed. While he is weaker than a scout, soldier or demo in battle, sentries and dispensers provide your team with enough support to be worth the pick.

    2. In general the classes are more self reliant. Your defense won't instantly crumble if glowing-rectangle-shield-man goes down, loosing a medic is somewhat of a big deal but with good plays you still have a change of winning the fight.

    3. TF2 doesn't have revives, mass stuns, damage blockers, or unbeatable nanoboosts. All four types of ubercharges have a counter and can be dealt with if prepared. The game isn't a stack of cards that will fall down if you don't kill the healer before the teamfight begins, having a (good) huntsman sniper doesn't mean you miss out on critical utility. Overwatch has so many situations that can turn a winning teamfight into a loosing one in the blink of an eye.

    All of these things make 2CP a pain in overwatch. There is no retreat and come back to get the point before it is capped (cp gorge has a long first cap time). There isn't any planning with a spy who can go in an sap the sentry before the push. Every defender is saving their ults for the attacking push and you can be darn sure every attacker is going to ult at the same time when they make their move. Once the fireworks go off the battle is decided in a matter of seconds. Its stressful and feels like you have no control of the situation. Almost like your flipping a going every time.

    Overwatch's payload and KOTH modes do not have these problems and that is why players despise the 2cp maps in overwatch. Most of these issues do not apply to TF2, so don't think that 2cp is bad in TF2 just because it is bad in Overwatch.

    As a side note, I have yet to investigate the effectiveness of soldier's bard banners on gorge, I plan to do so soon.


    TL DR TF2 and cp_gorge gives players more room to recover from their mistakes than overwatch's 2CP maps, thus resulting in a better player experience.
     
  7. Star Bright

    Star Bright L2: Junior Member

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    Apologies if my earlier comment made it seem that way, but I actually love A/D in TF2 for most of the reasons you've already described. I was just curious about the whole Payload thing. Out of all of the issues you listed is there a realistic way that TF2 6v6 payload could actually be less of a headache? Perhaps making the cart push faster exclusively in 6s, remodeling it to be a bit like Frontier (ugh, bad example, but pretend the implementation is way better), or fixing these network stutter issues (I'm not sure entirely what you mean by that, could you elaborate?)
     
  8. theatreTECHIE

    aa theatreTECHIE Yet another Techie for the net...

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    One of the maps in the new map cup is payload, where the payload continues going once blu touch it until red touch it. It could be an interesting change to the mode, since scouts don't have to babysit the cart. It would also be interesting to have rollback ramps still work the way they do currently.
     
  9. Star Bright

    Star Bright L2: Junior Member

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    Interesting. Does the cart have all the other normal mechanics of general Payload? Sounds a bit like a "moving control point" thing almost.
     
  10. hutty

    aa hutty

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    If we are talking Valve Comp 6s, the maps just need to be smaller and shorter. The maps in the map cup are designed for Traditional 6s, it would still be interesting to see how it plays.

    As for stuttering. Go in Overwatch and stand on some moving objects. Payloads, horizontally moving platforms, vertically moving platforms, ect. Then switch to TF2 and surf on the payload or play balloon race on a server (not local host). Overwatch is smoother by a huge margin.

    There is a reason TF2 doesn't has no elevators.
     
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  11. Messing Around

    Messing Around L5: Dapper Member

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    Just like normal, the differences are the payload doesn't need to be babysit and always running as x1 speed