Territory Control (TC)- Your Thoughts?

Discussion in 'Team Fortress 2 Talk' started by SiniStarR, Aug 30, 2009.

  1. SiniStarR

    SiniStarR L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    Well today I jumped into one of my favorites server without seeing the map name since I really didn't care I just wanted to play some TF2. When I got in the map was tc_hydro, a map that I had only played about two times and for about 6mins before I wanted to play Badwater or Dustbowl. But today I said "screw it", I rarely ever play here and the game has a decent amount of players so I said "why not?" I understood how tc worked before and I watched the video just to make sure. After playing for about 45mins neither team captured all the territories and I ended up playing the same parts of the map at least a 3 times. Hydro's layout is more unique than other stock maps considering there are multiple paths, height differences on paths, very different capture point areas.

    Now as far as I am aware, this really isn't a gamemode that people "want" to play. Usually people want to play cp or pl before tc.
    Because there is only 1 official TC map, a regular player has to think of Hydro, and I think that's the problem. Hydro is a very pretty and detailed map and is a gem when compared to some of the other maps in terms of looks, but to play on Hydro I think is the issue.
    I'm not saying Hydro is a bad map, but it seems to have flaws and level mechanic's that don't seem to work very well for TC. For example the vast differences between Blu's and Red's cp's are extremely different. Blu's CP are usually stuck in a building that you have to scale, while Red CP's are usually in a huge open area. While it's cool that they are different it doesn't seem to works too well in Hydro. Another example is the scale of Hydro. I think the size is right, but the amount of paths you can take are bit too overwhelming and I think it spreads the teams out too much to make a decent attempt to push your way to the CP.

    While I could go on about it, Im not going to. This is just an opinion that I have and I want to hear what people have to say about TC. I see TC as a game mode that has potential and I can see as to why it is a difficult game mode to work on, considering balancing is a large factor and there is only Hydro to look onto for references and example. I've only seen a handful of custom TC maps and I want to know why that is. Is it a bad game mode? Is Hydro just not a good example of how TC should work?


    TC what are your thoughts?
     
  2. Engineer

    aa Engineer

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    I don't care what everybody else is saying. I enjoy playing Hydro.
     
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  3. J4CK8

    J4CK8 L11: Posh Member

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    I love Hydro when it 'works'. Meaning decent teams that work together and it doesn't end up as a stalemate. If someone was able to make a decent tc map that was well balanced (Haven't played Meridian, but isnt that ctf-tc not cp-tc? I think probably puts some people off.)
     
  4. Dr. ROCKZO

    Dr. ROCKZO L8: Fancy Shmancy Member

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    Like everyone else, I really dig Hydro, when it works. And so often it doesn't that it's barely ever in rotations now which is such a shame..
     
  5. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

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    Hydro's problem is the diagonal rounds, which both funnel players through a single small area. This tends to cause a lot of frustrating stalemates. Other than that though, it's pretty enjoyable.

    I have to strongly disagree that there are too many paths to take in Hydro, because usually there are only two significant routes between points, with maybe a crossover or a sub-path thrown in. The diagonal rounds are evidence that fewer paths lead to worse gameplay.

    As for why there aren't very many custom TC maps, I think the main reason there is that they are a ton of work. They are not easy to plan, build, or adjust.
     
  6. Rikka

    Rikka L5: Dapper Member

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    Hydro's problem isn't team getting split up. You're really exaggerating the number of paths.
     
  7. Grimes

    Grimes L1: Registered

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    I think the overall problem with the tc game concept is that it is the most complicated gametype in tf2. Lets face it, most tf2 maps are very simple, straightforward, and easy to learn. TC goes against these principles. Besides, I think most players view it as complicated so they tend to dislike it. One of the biggest problems I see with tc is that of team roles. Who is attacking and who is defending. It seems that whole (or the majority of) teams tend to choose one or the other. Knowing to attack or defend is generally ambiguous at the start of the round. It works in other gamemodes where your team has time to react before the game ends, but in tc if your entire team ignores defense there is a good chance some random player will sneak by and get your point. Maybe a team hasn't quite got the best class makeup to combat that of the enemies and they keep dieing, it usually takes a few respawns to get it right. The point is, there is no room for error in tc. If you screw up, they take the point.

    I think a koth-like gamemode would fit tc well. Koth would take away the stalemate, once the cp is captured a team will win, it is just a matter of time. Koth would also eliminate the need for players to defend their base since both teams are attacking a central point.
     
  8. Zwiffle

    Zwiffle L6: Sharp Member

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    I agree with Grimes. I suggested a TC-koth hybrid in the Contest Idea thread and I've been working on a TC-koth hybrid map, because the rounds will be shorter (should be shorter) and there should be no stalemate what so ever.

    The main problem with TC is exactly what's been said - it stalemates way too much, and there are so few paths that it becomes a spam fest of rockets and stickies.

    I really like the idea of TC because it offers variety each round, and that can extend the life of a map. It is a pain to design successfully though, but one thing that can make it fun to play is the imbalance of each side.
     
  9. Wegason

    Wegason L4: Comfortable Member

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    I am not a big fan of Hydro because too often the game is not enjoyable, you get the occasional good game, but it is rare. I find TC maps to generally not be to my taste.
     
  10. Waif

    Waif L7: Fancy Member

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    Having both teams attacking and defending in a gamemode doesn't work well as it encourages turtling.
    Furthermore Hydro is basically two open ares which are easily defended joined by 2-3 narrow spammy "corridoors".

    Ive always had the idea of making a TC map where instead of both teams owning a point and trying to cap the enemies one, there is a central neutral point that they must fight for control.
    There would be a few of these that would have their own small rounds and once a particular team owned enough it would progress to the normal hydro last round attack/defend at the enemies base.
     
  11. Outscisor

    Outscisor L1: Registered

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    I don't think there's a problem with the game mode, the issue is with Hydro, which being the only official TC map is all anyone associates the mode with. The problems are basically as follows:

    Firstly, there's the lack of setup time. This means that Scouts can very easily cap a team's point before they have time to set up. This puts a lot of pressure on players to quickly defend their point without planning anything out, since losing a point means the whole round is reset. This also splits up the teams, leaving Scouts to have a fight amongst themselves in the middle with Heavies left far behind.

    Secondly, Hydro just isn't well designed. To be fair to Valve it was their first attempt at making a TC map, but in future, maps for this mode need to be done differently. Basically, the issue here is that the points are connected via long, narrow corridors - meaning there's not only very little room for flanking, but it takes a ridiculously long time to actually get anywhere.

    And on top of all this is the fact that the control points are all massive open areas - which, since they can only be reached through a tight corridor, leave players completely overwhelmed when they get there. There's no way for them to know what enemies are where, and there's certainly no way for them to deal with them - simply because to get there they'd have to run across a huge open expanse, hopefully not getting sniped in the meantime. Compare this to something like Dustbowl or Gravel Pit, where the attackers can gradually get closer to the control point, moving through buildings and behind walls, instead of being forced into an enormous area with nowhere to hide.

    Seriously guys, the issue is with Hydro - there's nothing wrong with the TC game mode. All it needs is a decent map to be played on. :)
     
  12. IcyEyes

    IcyEyes L2: Junior Member

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    I believe the main problem is with the players, not the map. Having a good team is absolutely vital to making hydro work well and be enjoyable. This is however, difficult to find on a public server. The results are lots of stalemates and fewer steamrolls then with most five point control maps.

    This is the key thing to remember here. Hydro is not very pub friendly. I would not approach the problem saying “how can we fix hydro?” because as far as I'm concerned it's not broken. Instead, I would say “how can we make a more pub friendly version of hydro.?” The answer would be to change the dual attack and defend layout completely. Making the objective simpler. Koth may work, but more experimenting needs to be done.
     
  13. The Political Gamer

    aa The Political Gamer

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    I think the next contest should be TC. However, you can make it TC/KOTH or TC/PL or whatever as long as it is TC at its core. This would give the push that is needed for more TC maps and better ones at that. It a comes down to this: Its not the mode that make the map but map that makes the mode work.
     
  14. Hawk

    Hawk L7: Fancy Member

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    What I enjoy about Attack/Defend and Payload maps but I don't get in TC maps like Hydro is a sense of progress. Hydro (and linear maps like Granary/Well) has the tendency to go on and on thanks to teams regaining control and pushing back. You can end up fighting over the same couple of control points too many times.

    I like how in Payload and Attack/Defend you never have to go back to old control points. Either you're pushing forward or you lose.

    Because of this factor, I don't think I'd like TC in any other map either..... that is, unless the mechanics changed a bit.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2009
  15. Shmitz

    aa Shmitz Old Hat

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    This seems odd to me, because the thing I like about TC maps is the sense of progress. It's not like CTF/KOTH/Arena which just rehash the same area round after round after round. By starting fresh each round, it gives a better sense of "this area is mine", a real consequence of ownership change that is lacking in 5CP push.

    I do like the immediate sense of progress that A/D and Payload maps have, but those maps also lack dynamic strategies. There's never a point where your team has to measure defensive rolls vs offensive rolls and change things up as needed in order to win. TC offers the best of both worlds.