Silo-C

silo_c b4a

Caliostro

L6: Sharp Member
Jul 6, 2009
261
110
Played this again today.

Got quite a few things good, quite a few things bad. So let's start with the good.

I fucking LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOVE the original concept of the underground silo, and the whole tunnel way from the spawns to each "area". Those tunnels are fucking awesome, don't change them. Ever.

It's also quite interesting to see the points integrated into a real system, "control", "fuel", etc, instead of seemingly disconnected "A" and "B". It just makes more sense.

That said, let's get to the bad stuff since that's what you need to fix.

First thing that bugs me about this map is that, for all it's pretty visuals, I can't shake the feeling that it seems more HL2 than TF2... Maybe it's the ambiance, maybe it's the fact that I'm pretty sure there's HL2 stuff thrown in the mix, but it's there. This is much more visible in the first two areas of the first stage than in the second stage, but it's still there.

Recommend that you do a bit further research on the TF2 art style. Keep the underground vibe you're going for, but adapt it to the TF2 world.

The second thing that bugs me about this is "scale". Quite a few parts of the map feel unnecessarily big, like you really just wanted to show us how pretty some stuff looks... There are a lot of areas around that seem to serve no purpose, where there's rarely any fighting and really just serve to augment the "grandeur" of the map. Ironically, the actual fighting areas by themselves become rather small and a bit bland. Look at the silo room (or "Fuel" or whatever, the area with the silos). It's very pretty, but in practice it's one big plane with some ramps around it and 2 poles. I put 1 sentry there, smack in the middle, and covered the whole thing. Maybe you could play around with the silo height or something, but as it is it's just one big plane really.

The courtyard or whatever (area opposed to the "fuel" room) is another good example. There's a lot of space... That's never used. Fighting there becomes a fleeting moment, shared between the point and ledge on top.

Inversely the final point of the first stage is amazingly cramped. for all the vertical space the room fails to accommodate the number of people that will normally be fighting in it, thus making the action chaotic. It's a shame because all that potential for great vertical combat seems to go to waste.

I find it very peculiar that you chose to make the final area considerably "tighter" than the other two, since, in my mind, the exact opposite would make more sense. Ideally all areas are big enough to accommodate all of both teams fighting in them, but given the choice in this gamemode, I'd sooner make the preceding 2 points more "cramped" than the last one, simply because the first two are optional, thus "flow" of combat can easily be rerouted if it becomes too cramped in one place, while the final point is mandatory. If one of the rooms is too cramped on the first points, the rest of the teams can simply move to the other, while the final point is, by definition, final. That's the last one, it's all there. It's especially peculiar because you then dedicate such a colossal space on stage 2 to a similarly vertical room that's almost always empty, because it's just a pathway.

Recommendation is that you work on the layout of the preceding two points (no need to make the space there smaller if you can justify it's existence) and make the final point (on the first stage) room bigger. In the 2nd stage, try to streamline the action a bit more. There are way too many areas that aren't even being used because they're so confusing and difficult to navigate.

Finally, try to resist temptation of just putting random overlays around... Some of yours don't make much sense... Considering the vibe you seem to be trying to give, some of those overlays make absolutely no sense... Why would someone post an ad about gardening tools or hamburgers in an underground base...? Coherence is very important. Overlays might seem unimportant, but even the smallest detail can quickly turn an experience down. Like the soundscape of the engineer's building damage warning. It looks like a good idea, but it's very confusing and disorienting to engineers.

That's pretty much it for now. I think the team imbalance would be fixed along with the aforementioned problems.

Cheers.
 

brick

L3: Member
Apr 12, 2008
103
13
Well first off thank you for your reply Caliostro!

First thing that bugs me about this map is that, for all it's pretty visuals, I can't shake the feeling that it seems more HL2 than TF2... Maybe it's the ambiance, maybe it's the fact that I'm pretty sure there's HL2 stuff thrown in the mix, but it's there. This is much more visible in the first two areas of the first stage than in the second stage, but it's still there.

Ok I know its tf2, but there arent that many hl2 textures and models in the map. I try not to use hl2 textures, but nothing tf2 fits some areas. So im basically stuck with hl2.

Any ways me and my brother were talking today after how to change fuel and the last point. Bascially this is what we came up with. Fuel will no longer have a 3rd level. Fuel will now have ramps going from the 2nd to 3rd lvl (as you know them now) coming out of the tunnels so you dont have to go all the way around. So with engineering the door on the 3rd level of fuel will be where the long tunnels for blue. So that should fix the whole size issue and red having an advantage on top of the silos. ( I hope!)

Now with round 4 (control room) we have decided to move the blue spawn and surrounding rooms one level up. So now blue will run out of spawn and the entrance to the control room will be straight ahead. No more having to go up 1 level. The rocket room will be for the other way to get to the second level of the control room. Should help blue stay together I think and the travel time would be like 5 seconds.

I know as a 6 CP map, as the map goes on it should become more open and less routes, or is it tigher and less routes. Either way, I think the main problem is having getting too spread out. I think this change will fix or atleast really help.

Yea I am going to remove as much unneeded stuff as possible since the map is so big, we are running out of resources as we are hitting the max on a lot of the engine capabilities.

Finally, try to resist temptation of just putting random overlays around.

Hehe, well I needed to put something on the wall and I thought they kind of fit the area. Since it seems like I cant use HL2 overlays since everyone yells. Now people dont want me to use tf2 overlays. I guess there is no winning.

Unless the screenies haven't been uploaded, whitening the lighting would look better IMO

Oh god I need to upload new screens. These are from my first alpha, a lot has changed.
 
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Caliostro

L6: Sharp Member
Jul 6, 2009
261
110
Ok I know its tf2, but there arent that many hl2 textures and models in the map. I try not to use hl2 textures, but nothing tf2 fits some areas. So im basically stuck with hl2.
[...]
Hehe, well I needed to put something on the wall and I thought they kind of fit the area. Since it seems like I cant use HL2 overlays since everyone yells. Now people dont want me to use tf2 overlays. I guess there is no winning.

The answer here is custom content. Take a look at tc_meridian. Almost everything in that map is custom content, built specific to fit that theme.

That said, not EVERYTHING HL2 is bad. Some stuff fits, some doesn't. My issue isn't specifically that you're using HL2 stuff, but that your map feels more HL2 in nature than TF2.

That said, the changes seem interesting, we'll see how it goes.
 

Nutomic

L11: Posh Member
Feb 7, 2009
888
177
I was totally lost in the map, did not find the way to the caps. And hl2 models/textures in tf2 just suck.
Also, did you know valve does not allow to include content from one game in another?
 

Swiftmind

L2: Junior Member
Dec 6, 2009
73
20
Finally after too much time we are upgrading to our first beta! :):):)

Revision Log for Beta1:
Map Wide:

* Map named changed, from silo_c to silo-c
* Round 1 and 2 combined
* Intro screen updated
* Fixed some prop and overlay fade distances

Round 1:
* Added quick path to DL from Red spawn
* Added one way gates from DL to SH
* Projector room windows now have areaportal
* Props on wall in lobby made non-solid

Locker room:
* Now only blue forward spawn. Sized down. Main exit moved to curved hallway


Round 2:

* Added one way gates for LQ and Fuel. Once areas capped players can no longer reenter these areas

Fuel:
* True ceiling built
* Moved CP to middle of top, added pump station around it
* Detail added

LQ:
* Added custom plaster texture


Round 3:

Control Room:
* Detail added

Silo:
* Retextured walls with concept

Red Spawn:
* Real spawn room built
 

H-land

L2: Junior Member
Jul 15, 2009
53
39
BLU's first spawn is a problem. The death pits right there in respawn are a big turn off. The main exits are also easily campable by stickymen and engies, both, and the vent exits are so easy to miss that honestly I never saw them except in deathcam spectating. Some other doors you couldn't tell from detail doors. One other thing is that the hallway with the full healthkit at the end in the third stage seemed way too long and straight. (Furthermore, why have a handicapped accessible restroom before the ADA was passed, forcing businesses everywhere to install inordinately low sinks and and drinking fountains, and why have a women's room in a game with only The Pyro and The Announcer?)
I'm sure that you'll recall that I had several other gripes, but I can't honestly remember them all quite neatly right now, I'm afraid.
 

brick

L3: Member
Apr 12, 2008
103
13
Some people like the pit some dont. Honetly its there for FUN. If you dont like it you dont need to jump down into it.

Ok, how can we fix this? Other maps have stickyable doors that no one seems to complain about them. What makes ours different? I guess well figure something out to make vent more noticeable.

Could you please tell me which doors?

You funny man making joke with bathroom.
 

Swiftmind

L2: Junior Member
Dec 6, 2009
73
20
Ah thanks for your post!

BLU's first spawn is a problem. The death pits right there in respawn are a big turn off.

Correct, blue first spawn is a problem. Everything in there is still alpha, we have not developed it in over a year. I plan on remaking it to its true form with more detail and better textures. But we want to keep the endless void of death, to poke fun at how stupid this death pit is in sector C. Like brick said, once you know its a deathpit, you do not need to jump into it.


The vent exits are so easy to miss that honestly I never saw them except in deathcam spectating.
I am not sure how to make it more apparent. There is a big hole in the floor with a big blue arrow pointing down. Do you have any suggestions on making it more noticeable? Would a brighter red light near the vent entrance help?

One other thing is that the hallway with the full healthkit at the end in the third stage seemed way too long and straight.
Ummm, third stage (round 3?). Round 3 is with the Control Room. I am not sure what hallway you speak of. It must be round 2 with the red/white travel tunnels? Is it the tunnel going to fuel?

(Furthermore, why have a handicapped accessible restroom before the ADA was passed, forcing businesses everywhere to install inordinately low sinks and and drinking fountains, and why have a women's room in a game with only The Pyro and The Announcer?)

:laugh: :laugh: My my you really looked at the detail haha. Yeah the restroom texture is a temporary texture. A real restroom texture is coming soon!
 

H-land

L2: Junior Member
Jul 15, 2009
53
39
A More Complete Examination

Took another look at the map, since you seemed so interested in my feedback. Think now, I've got to say that, to summarize all of its gameplay issues, a player doesn't know where to go, where they can go or how they can get there, and that once they get there (assuming that they do) they're bound to get distracted by lights and sounds.
So yeah. Let's see what I screenshotted that playthrough.
The reason that I never noticed the vent was probably lighting. When you're running about, it's easy to miss a small differently lit spot. The way to fix this would be to make the lights overhead less powerful, since as is, they're overpowering the little red light down below. Keep in mind that you can notice a dim light in a bright room better than a little dimness in a bright one.
Once I did find the vent, I found its poor lighting distressing. People do not like to go dark places, since, if for no other reason than that people like to see where they're going, and you can't always do that in the vent.
Next up as we progress through my screenshots is the issue of breakable glass. People don't expect breakable glass in TF2, so they won't look for it. Even if you don't care about that, one should note that when all of the glass is broken by the first point, sightlines are appallingly long.
Also in the first stage, you have some lovely glass doors. However, I find that one such door I always keep running into assuming to have it open only to find my face planted on a glass plane. I forget if this is a one-way door or what, but it's by another door that's not, and that's confusing.
On the topic of confusing doors, one should note that the maintainance doors are practically ends of a secret passageway. Nobody ever seems to use those textures on actual moving doors, so you don't expect them to move, so they never get tried. I discovered them myself by happy accident.

On the second stage of your map, one of my biggest gripes might be that once the Fuel door locks, the hallway to the door doesn't. It would be very nice if you could perhaps close that area off at an earlier point (at least from an entry standpoint- that is, cut off flow so that people could leave once both doors locked but couldn't return) so that I'd- ahem, that is, people would stop running down there.
A few computer consoles also stuck out of the wall, but weren't playerclipped. This is a simple issue to address, of course, if tedious or menial.
I also noticed that although the three points unlock in a fashion similar to Junction or Gravelpit, they're layed out like Gorge or Badwater or some other more linear map. This might be changed for clarity's sake.
You also had one door that opened but once, and at an insultingly slow rate. If this door does not open up faster in the future, then I may... well, actually, I can't do anything. It really did open up way too slow, though.

In stage three, BLU's spawn is boring and small. It's far too easy to get bored and run around and see everything before setup ends.
The hall with the bathroom at the end, as I said before, is way too long and straight.
I don't know if I was supposed to be able to, but also I was able to jump over to where Mr. Cancer the Chain-smoking Spy was having a break, but I could, and it turns out that his leg is on fire or something.
Now, I love the doors that you use on RED's resupply. However, the fact that you use these same doors by Mr. Cancer's room and make them inoperable is confusing at best.
I also notice that all of the glass opposite Mr. Cancer was breakable, even though one of the rooms was dark as a country night, and that some of the rooms even had unnecesary physics props in them. Honestly, I never even noticed anyone in any of those rooms in gameplay.


So to improve the map, cut down on confusing doors, breakable glass, blinky and colored lights, and try to playerclip a little bit more, perhaps.
 

Swiftmind

L2: Junior Member
Dec 6, 2009
73
20
Round 1 blue spawn has been completely rebuilt. It looks far better now. A much needed face lift! As I said before we never put time into this area for over a year since we concentrated on bigger feats...but it never hit us that this room is a first impression for half the players. A bad first impression is not good.

The reason that I never noticed the vent was probably lighting. When you're running about, it's easy to miss a small differently lit spot. The way to fix this would be to make the lights overhead less powerful, since as is, they're overpowering the little red light down below.

We are remaking this room slightly. The second set of grates, that did not have the hole to fall down in, has been removed and now a completely open. The concrete pole in the middle was removed. The former way to get to the vent (falling into the small hole made from the removed grates) has been replaced by the large open area I just mentioned. A new data link gameplay sign has been added and will have arrows pointing to the possible routes. This was a much needed change and ensures the vent way will always be noticed. The lighting was overpowered, I did not realize the saturation was at 240. I am currently playing with the lights to make them better.

Also in the first stage, you have some lovely glass doors. However, I find that one such door I always keep running into assuming to have it open only to find my face planted on a glass plane. I forget if this is a one-way door or what, but it's by another door that's not, and that's confusing.

Yes this is a one way gate. If you look at the gameplay sign right across from the respawn exit, you will see that the Security Hub is down the hallway, opposite of the doors in question. There is no reason for the players to go back up to Data link. I am guessing you are getting confused since they doors are the same. I will most likely replace the respawn door to perhaps the same doors used for Red's control room respawn. As of right now there is no plans to change the one way glass door gate.

On the second stage of your map, one of my biggest gripes might be that once the Fuel door locks, the hallway to the door doesn't.

When I first read this I thought you are not looking at the layout of the map since blue must use the tunnels down to Fuel for the alternative entrance to Engineering. So I was going to ignore this comment. But Bricksolid pointed out that you may be talking about this situation, when Fuel is capped before Living Quarters. Without more detail of what you were doing in the map I can not say if this was your situation or not. Regardless, a hole has been noticed in the gate system; a situation I did not think of. This will be fixed. Once fuel is capped, a gate will close to stop blue from running down this tunnel. But once it is time to cap engineering, this gate will open again.

You also had one door that opened but once, and at an insultingly slow rate.

This gives a break from fighting, allows all players to get back to the entrances to engineering and most importantly allows red to amount some type of defense. This is similar to what happens in cp_steel at point C (I think it was point C).

I also notice that all of the glass opposite Mr. Cancer was breakable, even though one of the rooms was dark as a country night, and that some of the rooms even had unnecesary physics props in them. Honestly, I never even noticed anyone in any of those rooms in gameplay.

We are now thinking of opening the door to the office closest to the CP. The prop_physics in this office is something that was added a long time ago and never removed. I dont see a huge issue with it at the moment since other maps for have prop_physics in them. I will be making a request at some point for a modeler to make a proper prop_static filecabinet.....you would think TF2 would have a filecabinet model already with all these crazy bases in so many maps.
 

SlayerBlitz

L3: Member
Dec 3, 2009
120
46
I loved this map, its the best A/D map I've played, and with a bit of work, it could be even better. It was a little confusing because of the weird cap names, lack of arrows, ect but with some work it would be perfect.