Discussion in 'Map Factory' started by riikikven, Jul 26, 2011.
5CP push map
Extreme height variation ftw.
Just by looking at the grid texture, and using that to judge sizes, it looks overscaled. the very last screenshot looks dull and unexciting. and the 4th screen shot, if that is mid, that is WAY too chokey.
So my suggestion would be to make everything smaller, use the info_player_teamspawn entity or even better a static prop of the heavy as a way to judge scale of your map.
It does not feel over-scaled when I run through it, and I've compared it to multiple other maps, and the distances you run are not extreme (from startspawn to mid is no longer than in Badlands). I agree it looks over-scaled, but I thing that just because it looks spartan. It've also occurred to me that some places may be a bit to high up. I'll look into that after playtesting with more than just myself.
The last screenshot is of 1/5, and i feel should be simple, sort of like Granary. It is also the least finished part of the map, considering advantages for both teams.
4th screenshot is not mid, but 2/4, as you can see from the first pic. However, I agree it looks very very chokey from the screenshot, but there is a sideroute and flanking routes. This is the point I am most unsure about.
EDIT: Actually, just looking at the last pic, I think I'll move the spawn and the point closer to the building with the curved window.
Alright, just ran through the map. I'll have to say, yea, the map is overscaled.Vertically it is very very overscaled. Distance between points and size/width of wards is also overscaled but not as drastically as it is vertically.
2/4 (the choke I was mentioning) will very much so be a choke, you have it in a pit (a very oddly shaped one too, the mounds around it don't need to be so abrupt), which will lead to a LOT of spam. that tied with the geometry of the map, you will find it to be VERY spammy and chokey.
For 1/5 you have that down hill (which, is a nice use, but too verical of a drop) with the hydro prop and you have that whole back area clipped off, I suggest you put up some walls there or something to show that people can not go back there. Leaving the clipping un-marked will completely screw up people.
You also have a lot of props breaking up sightlines and just placed randomly in the middle of rooms, although this seems like an easy and natural thing to do, it just leads to prop spam (which you have done in just about every part of your map, minus the mid, which is just waaaaaay too tall.
You're environmental lighting seems really dark, if you copy/pasted from a valve map, I suggest you add some exterior lights. If you didn't copy/paste from a valve map, I suggest you work on the environmental lighting.
Also, I know you said you don't want to hear detailing stuff, but chuck the orange texture. Use the Reflectivity textures instead.
Sorry, thats a lot to read, but I hope that this is helpful feedback for you.
Wow, yeah, I can tell from the size of the railings and the double stacked containers that this map is huuuuuuge.
Alright, thank you for the run-through, FR0Z3N. I can see the map is huge now. I think (and hope) that the prop spam and the overscaledness are interlinked, so that I won't need the dumb containers and the barrels/crates in the hallway etc. to break up sightlines. I'll bring out my butcher's knife, and cut off parts and stretches, tighten places, esp. the "8" (part between mid and 2/4), and remove the 'extreme' from 'extreme height variation'.
I'll also think of a new 2/4. I don't think there's a way to fix it, it was a crap idea to begin with. I'll also try to make it more connected with the 8.
I'll put in some fences and walls to make the "no go" areas more obvious. I'll fix the rest of the things you mentioned as well.
Again, thank you for your feedback. I hope you don't find me or the map hopeless, it's the first map I release, although I have tons of experience from playing around with hammer and looking at mapreleases here.
When you are rebuilding, do what I suggested and use the heavy.mdl model as a way to judge size, if it looks too high (like, if its 2 times his height) think "do I really need it that high up?"
It takes a while to figure out good scale.
You can use ABS's Ultimate Mapping Resource which replaces the info_player_teamspawn prop (the green Gordon Freeman statue) with a custom Engineer model (it does do much more than just that, but it seems to be the most important thing here).
Edit: Here you go.
Also, the map looks really dark. I don't know if that's what you were aiming for, but I think you should brighten it up a bit.
also good to look at official maps (vmfs here) and other customs for sizes and stuff i've found.
"i want this area to be about as big as X in Y map"
"i want this bridge to be as wide as badlands'"
"i want this roof to be roughly as high as gpit B's roof"
Hammer comes with some VMF's of official Valve maps, including cp_badlands.
Although I really (really) appreciate all of your help, I already know (all of the newbie help stuff). This is not my first attempt, but strangely, after looking at some old maps of mine, the first time my map has become overscaled. I suppose I was a bit too quick on the road from paper to hammer :^/
On the note of lighting, i just copied this over from an old map where all the preferences on env_sun and light_env and shadow_control were tuned to the badlands sky. I didn't care to do them all again on another sky. I'll increase the brightness now though. Done.
Anyways, I'm working on rescaling it now, and I'm removing badly placed/spammed props. I've also come up with a new 2nd/4th, but it's still on paper. I had another idea and constructed it, but it created more problems than it fixed, so I trashed it. The next file i release here will therefore be called a03.
Actually, I didn't know about that thread, Prestige. Thanks
I'm guessing it's gonna be way too hard to defend 2/4.
A03 - 17.08.11: I just watched bots playing the map a couple of rounds, and these are the issues i found (the important ones, anyways):
Last impossible to defend due to given height advantage for attackers as soon as they run into the base.
2/4 impossible to defend due to horrible defence setup for defenders. Well, not really impossible but I don't like it.
the area between 4 and last makes attackers run into defenders' back when defenders are trying to recap 2/4. Wasn't really an issue with bots but I think it will be with people.
tf_bots don't know where to run once spawning after capturing 4 (dunno how to fix - respawn 3 is on a platformkinda, too confusing maybe?).
no bots are swimming.
mid is too suspiciously like badlands mid, only dumber and crazier. Too spammy because of no proper sideroutes.
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