Partners Competition, how to distribute?

[Armadillo of Doom]

Just doing a little brainstorming here. For a mapping contest that allows collaborations, what would be a good way to handle them? Should people be randomly assigned to each other, or have the authors be responsible for getting together? The problem with the first is that not everyone joins on day 1, and someone who wants a partner gets left out. The problem with the second is that new or inexperienced mappers would have more trouble finding someone to work with than a mapper who has a few releases under his belt. Pairing with someone won't be a requirement for major contests, but I want to allow the option eventually.

Another thing to consider; should the rules define how the work is broken up, or leave that task to the authors? The possibility that someone with good intentions simply gets sidetracked or otherwise drops out is very high. So should collabs even be allowed for major contests, regardless of how simple/complex the game mode? Or should they be reserved for learning events and specific community projects? Now share the contents of your brain

 

[J4CK8]

I don't think that a normal competition should allow collabs as it would encourage the best of mappers to work together. However I would say that a collab competition might work, if all willing paticipents are put into order of there mapping skills, and then you mix and match the experienced with the new.

Obviously this would probably be annoying for the the experienced mapper, having to fix loads of mistakes, and the new mapper may get annoyed with being told what's wrong and such errors.

I think it's best to maybe keep collabs to a mini-comp learning experience, and stick with the larger comps not allowing collabs.

 

[Dr. Spud]

I would hate a collaboration contest. One of two things would happen:

a) people that have already collaborated with each other will team up, and have a big chance of winning.

b) people of different skill levels get teamed up, and work is tedious.

I think the way the contests work already is fine. Other people can still help out in the form of textures, models, or ideas.

 

[Fearlezz]

I think it would be best to decide yourself who you want to team up with.
Because then, more skilled mappers wont end up with amateur mappers, which I know many skilled mapper wont like and think that sometimes less skilled mappers are annoying. And I do myself have experience of this.
Plus that wont work anyways. Because skilled and less skilled mappers can have so different knowings and it can end up with the skilled mapper spending most of his time teaching the other mapper, about for example optimization.

However, if you can choose yourself, and choose a mapper with the same skill as you, you'll end up having fun, plus making much progress. But as always, some maps will be better then others. Its just like solo mapping, there will always be maps that totally pwn other maps made by amateurs. So your point about one team of experienced mappers would have a bigger advantage over a team of less experienced mappers, imo, is invalid.
Cause, its just the same thing as solo mapping.

 

[DaBeatzProject]

Okay, first of all, I'm not sure here, i'm just spitting out some random thoughts, but...

I'm actually very interested in seeing more collaborations between mappers, mostly good/known mappers. I'm not saying that those maps are the best maps there are; take a look at Furnace Creek. The gameplay is well, the detailing is ... lovely, to say the least. But it's not when the map's being playing I'm going like "omg it's furnace woohoo dis is best map evar!!11!oneone!..." The reason why I'm so interested to see those maps is because they are/were/are going to be/... special, maybe even more special than the regular custom map. Examples are Glacier with it's unique snow theme, Furnace with the nice models and special, unique effects, ...

Valve don't make their maps alone either (I think), so good teamwork makes good maps?

Anyways, I am PRO: collabs-allowed. Eerieone and I started with the idea for premuda, maybe two weeks before this anual contest was announced. It was a real pain in the arse to read that collabs were not allowed, since we were ready and set to begin the map. But whatever...
After reading the posts up there (î), I wanted to add something.

A solution to the new and less experienced-mappers problem might be that everyone who wants to enter, and are sure he or she is not going to stop in the middle of the contest, put their name on a list, and give some extra information about their mapping skills, if they want to work alone, if they're happy with someone less experienced, etc... Then later the admins or other people can mix and match, and have a chat with the people on the list, an so that everyone can find a well-suited partner.

Not sure if this is a good idea or not, just my 9001 cents.

 

[Gerbil]

Personally, I really like the idea of collaborations. But I'm not entirely sure about how to organize it. If it will be experienced mapper + amateur/not as good mapper it might work out fine for those who are more patient. But for people with less patience it would be a disaster. On the other hand, if it will be regular team-ups then we will probably see more great collaborations between the good mappers and the collabs from the less experienced teams might vanish in to the depths of the map showcase. I can be wrong though.

 

[YM]

Did you mean to post this in the mod cave by any chance??

My personal views:
I wouldnt like a collab contest, especially one where i have to work with a prechosen partner. My lab partner for this year is prechosesn, I'm dreading meeting them incase they're one of those hard to get along with or really lazy/dumb or whaterver, so i wouldnt want to inflict that on a contest. I feel dropouts would be more likely.

I'm not sure a free choice partner contest would be good, but it would certainly be better. Teamups between equal leveled mappers then is more likely and people who already know they work well together would have no problems churning out something at the speed of light, whilst more novice mappers pairing up would probably run into a fair few problems.
novice-novice teamups would also see a pro-pro teamup as highly unfair.

 

[Armadillo of Doom]

Like I said, this won't be a requirement, nor will we have a major contest based around it. I'm trying to think of a good way to allow the option. But as many of you have reiterated, there are a great number of complications. I think that to start, I'll make up some basic projects for people to collaborate on. Basically testing various methods of pairing and finding out what sort of problems are created. Part of the issue is the amount of work that is involved. Doing say a basic 3cp A/D map or 5cp linear map is considerably easier than PLR or A/D CTF. Thus partnering on the former is easier as well.

 

[Zwiffle]

People can sign up to be in one of two camps - experienced/pro mappers and amateurs. There are many ways you can go with this - a pro collab contest and an amateur contest, where people in each pool partner with someone else from that pool. Or, you can have a pro and amateur team up, randomly or non randomly.

But, to say something like "an amateur team would see a pro team as unfair" doesn't really mean anything, that's just tough titties. An amateur would see a pro in a normal contest as "unfair" but so what? Shouldn't stop them from trying their best to get to that level in the first place and have some fun while doing it, right?

I would prefer to work with another experienced/professional mapper personally, because otherwise the contest would feel more like holding an amateur's hand (which I'm not against, but if the goal is to make good or fun maps, then having to hold someone's hand through the process is not preferred.)

 

[Ravidge]

Opinion: I don't think collabs are a good concept for competitions.
Wouldn't mind seeing more group/teamed maps though.

 

[Armadillo of Doom]

Did you mean to post this in the mod cave by any chance??

We have our own forum?! D:

 

[Fearlezz]

Ofcourse novice-novice teams would think competing against pro-pro teams is unfair. But its just like that in the contest we had before. Novice mappers think its unfair that highly talented mappers are allowed to compete. But thats just how it is.

 

[Fraz]

Should people be randomly assigned to each other, or have the authors be responsible for getting together? The problem with the first is that not everyone joins on day 1, and someone who wants a partner gets left out. The problem with the second is that new or inexperienced mappers would have more trouble finding someone to work with than a mapper who has a few releases under his belt. Pairing with someone won't be a requirement for major contests, but I want to allow the option eventually.

With this, I feel let people decide themselves, there shouldn't have to be a collaboration, just give it as an option. I'm sure people generally know if they prefer working alone or in pairs or groups.

Another thing to consider; should the rules define how the work is broken up, or leave that task to the authors?

Let the authors decide this, people prefer doing different things, so allocating stuff may not be to the mapper's will and therefore get butthurt and stop taking part in the contest.

The possibility that someone with good intentions simply gets sidetracked or otherwise drops out is very high. So should collabs even be allowed for major contests, regardless of how simple/complex the game mode? Or should they be reserved for learning events and specific community projects?

Let the collabs happen, don't have a collab contest, but allow it to happen for those who opt to.

 

[Ravidge]

I just thought about this for a bit more.

How about the contest is open for collabs, not a reqirement.
And then have 2 prizes, one for solo, other for collab.

Wouldn't that counter the 'unfair' argument quite nicely?

Arguing about who is a better/more experienced mapper and how unfair it is to compete against them is silly. Look at the winner of the last competition, eerie won with his first map ever, going up against youme, mangy other well know mappers.

And one thing: if there ever is collab contests; let the people choose who to work with themselves!

 

[Tapp]

I think that if you were doing a collab contest, the best would be to pair people as they choose, but don't have a dead-line. By making the finish "when most of them are done" it would encourage experienced mappers to help out the newer ones.

 

[Ankh]

I'd love a collab contest. pre-chosen or otherwise.

Pairing a good mapper with a newer mapper would be a great learning experience for them, as well as getting them a release under their belt that doesn't suck (in theory)
a good way to annotate maps would be key in that regard because if the newer mapper is unwilling or unable to learn it would go terribly.

For that reason, voluntary seems like a better option - maybe ask experienced mappers to go with newer ones, but don't force them.

 

[Zwiffle]

The problem I have with new mapper + old mapper is that I can seriously imagine all of the newer mapper's work being removed/remade/ridiculed by the old mapper, and then so basically like 95% of the map would be the work of the experienced mapper, which kind of defeats the purpose of the collab in the first place.

 

[TMP]

I think that if you were doing a collab contest, the best would be to pair people as they choose, but don't have a dead-line. By making the finish "when most of them are done" it would encourage experienced mappers to help out the newer ones.

Contest would never finish. "STILL WORKIN ON MAH MAP SIR" "It's been 12 years, TMP. What have you done?" "CP 1."

 

[Fraz]

Say we have a competition, for a 5cp push map. Make the deadline 4 - 5 months, allow people to collab if they so wish if they don't they don't. It's really up to the mappers in hand on how well the collab would work. Some people might be friendly, helping the new mapper. If eventually a relationship goes bad down the line, leave the mappers to decide for themselves what happens next. We never will truly know how a competition with a collab would work on a large level, until we try it. If it doesn't go well, don't do it again. Simples.

 

[MrAlBobo]

Say we have a competition, for a 5cp push map. Make the deadline 4 - 5 months, allow people to collab if they so wish if they don't they don't. It's really up to the mappers in hand on how well the collab would work. Some people might be friendly, helping the new mapper. If eventually a relationship goes bad down the line, leave the mappers to decide for themselves what happens next. We never will truly know how a competition with a collab would work on a large level, until we try it. If it doesn't go well, don't do it again. Simples.

This.
I really see no reason why special conditions need to be implemented for colabs. From what ive seen anyways colabs are far less likely to finish anyways...