Large Bodies of Water

[tedrock]

So I'm trying to figure out a way to give an effect of two islands isolated in the middle of the ocean. Two of the obvious issues I'm going to have is #1 lots of water will be harmful to performance and #2 I want to use boundaries to prevent people from swimming off into the sunset and I can't really drop a fence in the middle of the ocean.

To get around #1 I thought about using a limited amount of water around the islands or even just between them and then a 3D skybox showing infinite water but I can't seem to lineup skybox water with the real water. The skybox water level is normally below the normal water (maybe a problem with where I put the camera). Also the differences in textures is very obvious (doesn't fade from one texture to the next).

And now with #2. I came up with 3 ideas so far. In the first one I have real accessible water between the 2 islands and unaccessible (maybe cheap) water bordering both sides and a clip preventing players from accessing it. And then a 3d skybox giving the effect of the water going on forever. The unaccessible water is to give a little buffer room for the water to fade/merge into the skybox water. Idea two is basically the same but gives more area to swim.
Then there is idea 3 where there is no clip and the blue area is actually a damage trigger so if they decide to go too far they take damage or it could be fog and they just can't see beyond it and then i wouldn't need a 3d skybox with infinite water.

Suggestions?

The key for the images is:
1. Land
2. Accessible water
3. Unaccessible/Harmful water or fog
4. Clip border
5. Skybox

The next hurtle will be dealing with depth of the water. I want it to look bottomless and I want any of the brushes (bottoms of islands) to fade into this bottomless pit. I believe water kind of already does this on it's own.

 

[Hawk]

I've dealt with this same problem myself in a map I did. The thing is, I've still never been able to get the nearby water to blend with the skybox water, and I haven't seen any other maps pull it off, either. I've settled on the fact that trying to have an ocean in your map will always look a little bit funny, so I just deal with the ugly seam.

As for your water levels being diffferent, you're probably right about it having to do with your camera placement.

 

[Narkissus]

In cruise i have a little bit of water surrounding the main map and the rest is skybox, and i think it turned out pretty well, there isnt a big noticable seam atleast. i think the best would be a limited amount of water around your map and the rest just skybox. Scale the water correctly, flip it around, rotate and such until it looks right.

 

[tedrock]

link to cruise so i can take a gander?

 

[DJive]

don't forget about the search bud. most times it will yield a quicker answer then a poster will be able to =)


ctf_cruise a5

Agreed though. In Nark's Cruise map its hardly noticeable unless you are really trying to look for it.

 

[MangyCarface]

If you look at my map, there's absolutely no detectable change between regular and skybox water. Two reasons for this:
a. I put an actual line on top of it in the form of buoys. Breaking up the line with objects helps eliminate its obviousness.
b. If you seal your map below the water with a brush textured with tools/black, the water should blend in a way that makes it seem both deep and seamed.

Anyway, hope that helps.

 

[Hawk]

In cruise i have a little bit of water surrounding the main map and the rest is skybox, and i think it turned out pretty well, there isnt a big noticable seam atleast. i think the best would be a limited amount of water around your map and the rest just skybox. Scale the water correctly, flip it around, rotate and such until it looks right.

Wow, you weren't kidding, and now I have to take it back. It looks like I have seen a map that does it well now. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions about how you did that?

- How did you manage your cubemaps? Does the water in the playfield and the water in the skybox both have to use the same env_cubemap?

- Did fog have any bearing on the skybox water matching the playfield water?

Thanks for any answers you can provide. And by the way, ctf_cruise is looking like it will be one incredible map when it's finished. I look forward to seeing it then.

 

[Narkissus]

Wow, you weren't kidding, and now I have to take it back. It looks like I have seen a map that does it well now. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions about how you did that?

- How did you manage your cubemaps? Does the water in the playfield and the water in the skybox both have to use the same env_cubemap?

- Did fog have any bearing on the skybox water matching the playfield water?

Thanks for any answers you can provide. And by the way, ctf_cruise is looking like it will be one incredible map when it's finished. I look forward to seeing it then.

Thanks for the comments about the map

As for the cubemaps, I have like 6 env_cubemaps above the water in the actual map and around 6 more sitting above the water in the skybox.

And the fog, well i just picked a good color that tried to match my skybox, i dont think it has anything to do with water matching.

 

[tedrock]

i was looking at cruise tonight and i'm kinda confused about something. When I flew out to your 3D skybox (noclip) i didn't see any water in it but it appears to have water when looking at it normally from the ship. How does that work? or maybe I just wasn't close enough
Also I'll be honest and I thought the seam was very noticeable between skybox and the water surrounding the ship. It's extremely noticeable when you get on the edge of the ship and look to the side. you can see the corner. what i saw seems very different from what Hawk saw... maybe i got a different version because i don't see any fogging...

And when I was underwater in the pool I could see little specks of stuff floating around in the water which i've never seen in the water I've used.

 

[Narkissus]

Wow, ive never seen the water look like that, ive no idea whats going on there. Maybe try to redownload it or something.. Its like you have a setting turned off or something.. is there even a fog effects setting to turn off?

But the floating things, thats part of the water, it has floaties in it.

It looks like the attached picture normally.

 

[tedrock]

My advanced video settigns are:
Whole top row is all high.
water detail: reflect all
shadow detail: medium
antialiaing mode: 4x MSAA
Filtering mode: anisotropic 8x
wait for vert: disabled
high dynamic: off
bloom off

I took some more pictures but to be honest a video would show what I'm seeing better. I have fraps but I don't know really what to use to convert the raw avi file with to make it more web friendly. Also I need a good site to upload it to so i can link it. I agree something is weird with how fog works. I had a fog controller in one of my test maps and it wall worked fine but i was noticing ealier that even if i deleted and readded a fog controller the effect no logger appeared.

The first image shows that when I look at it at an angle it actually looks how it's supposed to. But when I look more towards the skywall it almost looks like the part of the skywall underwater is being darkened or tinted. The last image is what I was talking about when I fly up to your 3D sky box, no water is shown for some reason.

 

[Narkissus]

Yeah, for some reason the water doesnt show up in the skybox when noclipping around in it, i dont know why but it doesnt, its always never shown up for me.

The wall of darkness your seeing is a wall i have put in under the water to tint out the skybox water because the fog wasnt working in the skybox water, so when underwater it would be akward having it all foggy and hard to see watery where you are then perfectly normal off in the distance.

It seems you have a problem with the fog is all i can guess, but ive no idea whats causing it. i hope that possibly its isolated to only you because that would totally ruin the map for some people if it does that.

 

[tedrock]

so you actually have a fog entity (or whatever generates fog) down there at the edge? like I can see the normal fogging caused by a fog controller being done for distant stuff (the blue colour on the far horizon in the 3 pictures i posted). because i don't think the issue is with fog. it's more with water, reflection or lighting.

here's something else odd i noticed. if i run from one side to the other i see this glitch:

it looks like the water is being zoomed in on through the hole in the railing.

once i get closer it fixes.

 

[Hawk]

As for the cubemaps, I have like 6 env_cubemaps above the water in the actual map and around 6 more sitting above the water in the skybox.

Wait, now I'm confused. I thought that all water surfaces had to be attached to the same env_cubemap in order for them to have a consistent reflection.

 

[Narkissus]

Wait, now I'm confused. I thought that all water surfaces had to be attached to the same env_cubemap in order for them to have a consistent reflection.

I dunno, i didnt, and it seems fine.

so you actually have a fog entity (or whatever generates fog) down there at the edge? like I can see the normal fogging caused by a fog controller being done for distant stuff (the blue colour on the far horizon in the 3 pictures i posted). because i don't think the issue is with fog. it's more with water, reflection or lighting.

No, the water texture itself has fog values, it makes it seem very foggy and like you are actually underwater while in it. And you cant see into it very far.
I dont know the problem you are having or how to fix it unfortunately. The water changing also isnt that big of a problem, it only happens ususally while very far away, i dont know why its happening to you right there though. it might be the water controller changing to cheap water, im not sure.

 

[tedrock]

as someone requested in chat.

My advanced video settigns are:
Whole top row is all high.
water detail: reflect all
shadow detail: medium
antialiaing mode: 4x MSAA
Filtering mode: anisotropic 8x
wait for vert: disabled
high dynamic: off
bloom off

using a radeon x1600 pro
Driver Version Omega 7.12
Release Version 8.442-071204a1-055811C-ATI-OMEGA

 

[Hawk]

Well, cool. Now that I know I don't have to have an ugly water seam, I'm going to play around with my water a bit more. Thanks for the information, Narkissus.

 

[tedrock]

Now that I know I don't have to have an ugly water seam

unless i play the map with my messed up system...

 

[VelvetFistIronGlove]

I've also got a Radeon X1600, so I installed the same drivers as tedrock, and the same settings he was using, but couldn't replicate the "see the wall under the water" thing.

However, the problem tedrock mentions in post #13 is an issue with the cubemap used for the water reflection changing as you move about the water. IOW, it's a bug in Nark's map.

 

[Narkissus]

However, the problem tedrock mentions in post #13 is an issue with the cubemap used for the water reflection changing as you move about the water. IOW, it's a bug in Nark's map.

Any idea how to fix this? maybe it was what hawk was talking about, tying it all to one cubemap?