Large Bodies of Water

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by tedrock, Apr 21, 2008.

?

Which idea is best?

  1. Idea #1

    3 vote(s)
    42.9%
  2. Idea #2

    2 vote(s)
    28.6%
  3. Idea #3

    2 vote(s)
    28.6%
  4. Other...

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  1. tedrock

    tedrock L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    79
    Positive Ratings:
    8
    So I'm trying to figure out a way to give an effect of two islands isolated in the middle of the ocean. Two of the obvious issues I'm going to have is #1 lots of water will be harmful to performance and #2 I want to use boundaries to prevent people from swimming off into the sunset and I can't really drop a fence in the middle of the ocean.

    To get around #1 I thought about using a limited amount of water around the islands or even just between them and then a 3D skybox showing infinite water but I can't seem to lineup skybox water with the real water. The skybox water level is normally below the normal water (maybe a problem with where I put the camera). Also the differences in textures is very obvious (doesn't fade from one texture to the next).

    And now with #2. I came up with 3 ideas so far. In the first one I have real accessible water between the 2 islands and unaccessible (maybe cheap) water bordering both sides and a clip preventing players from accessing it. And then a 3d skybox giving the effect of the water going on forever. The unaccessible water is to give a little buffer room for the water to fade/merge into the skybox water. Idea two is basically the same but gives more area to swim.
    Then there is idea 3 where there is no clip and the blue area is actually a damage trigger so if they decide to go too far they take damage or it could be fog and they just can't see beyond it and then i wouldn't need a 3d skybox with infinite water.

    Suggestions?

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]


    The key for the images is:
    1. Land
    2. Accessible water
    3. Unaccessible/Harmful water or fog
    4. Clip border
    5. Skybox

    The next hurtle will be dealing with depth of the water. I want it to look bottomless and I want any of the brushes (bottoms of islands) to fade into this bottomless pit. I believe water kind of already does this on it's own.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2008
  2. Hawk

    Hawk L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    419
    Positive Ratings:
    212
    I've dealt with this same problem myself in a map I did. The thing is, I've still never been able to get the nearby water to blend with the skybox water, and I haven't seen any other maps pull it off, either. I've settled on the fact that trying to have an ocean in your map will always look a little bit funny, so I just deal with the ugly seam.

    As for your water levels being diffferent, you're probably right about it having to do with your camera placement.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  3. Narkissus

    Narkissus L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    228
    Positive Ratings:
    9
    In cruise i have a little bit of water surrounding the main map and the rest is skybox, and i think it turned out pretty well, there isnt a big noticable seam atleast. i think the best would be a limited amount of water around your map and the rest just skybox. Scale the water correctly, flip it around, rotate and such until it looks right.
     
  4. tedrock

    tedrock L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    79
    Positive Ratings:
    8
    link to cruise so i can take a gander?
     
  5. DJive

    aa DJive Cake or Death?

    Messages:
    1,466
    Positive Ratings:
    736
    don't forget about the search bud. most times it will yield a quicker answer then a poster will be able to =)


    ctf_cruise a5


    Agreed though. In Nark's Cruise map its hardly noticeable unless you are really trying to look for it.
     
  6. MangyCarface

    aa MangyCarface Mapper

    Messages:
    1,616
    Positive Ratings:
    1,275
    If you look at my map, there's absolutely no detectable change between regular and skybox water. Two reasons for this:
    a. I put an actual line on top of it in the form of buoys. Breaking up the line with objects helps eliminate its obviousness.
    b. If you seal your map below the water with a brush textured with tools/black, the water should blend in a way that makes it seem both deep and seamed.

    Anyway, hope that helps.
     
  7. Hawk

    Hawk L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    419
    Positive Ratings:
    212
    Wow, you weren't kidding, and now I have to take it back. It looks like I have seen a map that does it well now. Do you mind if I ask you a few questions about how you did that?

    - How did you manage your cubemaps? Does the water in the playfield and the water in the skybox both have to use the same env_cubemap?

    - Did fog have any bearing on the skybox water matching the playfield water?

    Thanks for any answers you can provide. And by the way, ctf_cruise is looking like it will be one incredible map when it's finished. I look forward to seeing it then.
     
  8. Narkissus

    Narkissus L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    228
    Positive Ratings:
    9
    Thanks for the comments about the map :)

    As for the cubemaps, I have like 6 env_cubemaps above the water in the actual map and around 6 more sitting above the water in the skybox.

    And the fog, well i just picked a good color that tried to match my skybox, i dont think it has anything to do with water matching.
     
  9. tedrock

    tedrock L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    79
    Positive Ratings:
    8
    i was looking at cruise tonight and i'm kinda confused about something. When I flew out to your 3D skybox (noclip) i didn't see any water in it but it appears to have water when looking at it normally from the ship. How does that work? or maybe I just wasn't close enough
    Also I'll be honest and I thought the seam was very noticeable between skybox and the water surrounding the ship. It's extremely noticeable when you get on the edge of the ship and look to the side. you can see the corner. what i saw seems very different from what Hawk saw... maybe i got a different version because i don't see any fogging...
    [​IMG]

    And when I was underwater in the pool I could see little specks of stuff floating around in the water which i've never seen in the water I've used.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2008
  10. Narkissus

    Narkissus L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    228
    Positive Ratings:
    9
    Wow, ive never seen the water look like that, ive no idea whats going on there. Maybe try to redownload it or something.. Its like you have a setting turned off or something.. is there even a fog effects setting to turn off?

    But the floating things, thats part of the water, it has floaties in it.

    It looks like the attached picture normally.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2008
  11. tedrock

    tedrock L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    79
    Positive Ratings:
    8
    My advanced video settigns are:
    Whole top row is all high.
    water detail: reflect all
    shadow detail: medium
    antialiaing mode: 4x MSAA
    Filtering mode: anisotropic 8x
    wait for vert: disabled
    high dynamic: off
    bloom off

    I took some more pictures but to be honest a video would show what I'm seeing better. I have fraps but I don't know really what to use to convert the raw avi file with to make it more web friendly. Also I need a good site to upload it to so i can link it. I agree something is weird with how fog works. I had a fog controller in one of my test maps and it wall worked fine but i was noticing ealier that even if i deleted and readded a fog controller the effect no logger appeared.

    The first image shows that when I look at it at an angle it actually looks how it's supposed to. But when I look more towards the skywall it almost looks like the part of the skywall underwater is being darkened or tinted. The last image is what I was talking about when I fly up to your 3D sky box, no water is shown for some reason.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  12. Narkissus

    Narkissus L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    228
    Positive Ratings:
    9
    Yeah, for some reason the water doesnt show up in the skybox when noclipping around in it, i dont know why but it doesnt, its always never shown up for me.

    The wall of darkness your seeing is a wall i have put in under the water to tint out the skybox water because the fog wasnt working in the skybox water, so when underwater it would be akward having it all foggy and hard to see watery where you are then perfectly normal off in the distance.

    It seems you have a problem with the fog is all i can guess, but ive no idea whats causing it. i hope that possibly its isolated to only you because that would totally ruin the map for some people if it does that.
     
  13. tedrock

    tedrock L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    79
    Positive Ratings:
    8
    so you actually have a fog entity (or whatever generates fog) down there at the edge? like I can see the normal fogging caused by a fog controller being done for distant stuff (the blue colour on the far horizon in the 3 pictures i posted). because i don't think the issue is with fog. it's more with water, reflection or lighting.

    here's something else odd i noticed. if i run from one side to the other i see this glitch:

    [​IMG]
    it looks like the water is being zoomed in on through the hole in the railing.

    [​IMG]
    once i get closer it fixes.
     
    Last edited: Apr 22, 2008
  14. Hawk

    Hawk L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    419
    Positive Ratings:
    212
    Wait, now I'm confused. I thought that all water surfaces had to be attached to the same env_cubemap in order for them to have a consistent reflection.
     
  15. Narkissus

    Narkissus L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    228
    Positive Ratings:
    9
    I dunno, i didnt, and it seems fine.

    No, the water texture itself has fog values, it makes it seem very foggy and like you are actually underwater while in it. And you cant see into it very far.
    I dont know the problem you are having or how to fix it unfortunately. The water changing also isnt that big of a problem, it only happens ususally while very far away, i dont know why its happening to you right there though. it might be the water controller changing to cheap water, im not sure.
     
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
  16. tedrock

    tedrock L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    79
    Positive Ratings:
    8
    as someone requested in chat.

    My advanced video settigns are:
    Whole top row is all high.
    water detail: reflect all
    shadow detail: medium
    antialiaing mode: 4x MSAA
    Filtering mode: anisotropic 8x
    wait for vert: disabled
    high dynamic: off
    bloom off

    using a radeon x1600 pro
    Driver Version Omega 7.12
    Release Version 8.442-071204a1-055811C-ATI-OMEGA
     
  17. Hawk

    Hawk L7: Fancy Member

    Messages:
    419
    Positive Ratings:
    212
    Well, cool. Now that I know I don't have to have an ugly water seam, I'm going to play around with my water a bit more. Thanks for the information, Narkissus.
     
  18. tedrock

    tedrock L2: Junior Member

    Messages:
    79
    Positive Ratings:
    8
    unless i play the map with my messed up system... :p
     
  19. VelvetFistIronGlove

    aa VelvetFistIronGlove

    Messages:
    567
    Positive Ratings:
    437
    I've also got a Radeon X1600, so I installed the same drivers as tedrock, and the same settings he was using, but couldn't replicate the "see the wall under the water" thing.

    However, the problem tedrock mentions in post #13 is an issue with the cubemap used for the water reflection changing as you move about the water. IOW, it's a bug in Nark's map.
     
  20. Narkissus

    Narkissus L5: Dapper Member

    Messages:
    228
    Positive Ratings:
    9
    Any idea how to fix this? maybe it was what hawk was talking about, tying it all to one cubemap?