- Thread starter Berry
- Start date
Do you mean the return of the autumn theme pack, or autumn theme pack 2: electric boogaleafless trees
takabuschik
aa
- Apr 14, 2013
- 663
- 343
I played this on 2 imps recently, and I really enjoyed it. I wanted to leave some more serious feedback based on playing this, so I'll post it here.
All I'm about to say is just my opinion, nothing more.
First point
First is my favorite point, because it has some great places to be in for both teams.
Here I show why I like this point. It has a great anti-spawncamp mechanism- Red can't constantly attack BLU, they can't go through the 1-way yellow door, they can't go that easily through the dropdown. Red has the brown building behind the camera in the pic (not shown) and the dev building with the window, as defense points. Blu has great sightlines into them, but RED doesn't have that good sightlines into BLU places. If BLU has to abort a capture attempt, they can duck behind the crates into the lowered area at the bottom of the pic, and hide there (RED can't get them from the dev building).
I think RED might need a slight advantage for the dev building, I suggest to make the health in there a medium health.
2nd point
I didn't get to be on the 2nd point, not as defense not as offence, so I can't leave valueable specific feedback on it. BLU simply cap it too fast. So make it easier to defend and longer cap time, maybe?
3rd point
This point is good, but it suffers from a major problem- too easy to defend. It seems like you tried to solve this in previous versions, by adding flanks. 3rd point has lots and lots of flanks, and it can be quite overwhelming at first, kind of like the 4th cp of pl_upward. I sometimes still find in upward a a new flank route I never saw before.
While exploring new flanks is fun, (and upward is my favorite pl map) it is still quite problematic for RED. RED doesn't know where BLU will come from, so they block the only place they know for sure BLU will pass through- the CP itself. And that only makes the problem worse- RED's defense is not spread around- it is focused on the point.
BLU has a ridiculous advantage of 5 entrances, 2 higherground attacking positions, 2 one way entrances directly into RED defense spots (1 way door in brown building and dropdown in dev building), and another complete flank around the whole thing (the tunnel) YET STILL IT'S NOT ENOUGH!!!
First- I think you need to reduce the flanks amount, and try to solve this by weakening RED, not strengthening BLU.
IMO it might be better to remove path no. 3 or path no. 2. If not, it might be better to completely change off the way the paths work. I think your last is similar to snakewater's last, because both have a leftmost high exit (snakewater's "dropdown" is your's "5"). maybe you should refer to that if you decide on remaking it.
And I also think that you should remove the tunnel. I know it's cool. But is doesn't help BLU, and I don't think RED needs it either. It just adds to the huge number of passages in 3rd cp.
3rd cp has 2 buildings to it's sides. The interesting thing about those buildings is that they are shared between the 2 teams. RED controls half of each building and BLU control the other half.
I think that is a great chance to strengthen BLU without adding flanks. You can make the buildings better for BLU, and weaken RED's sentry spots in them.
I'll start with the white dev textured building.
Here's my suggestion:
Better for BLU, and less useful as a RED sentry nest or a defense position
I don't have any idea atm for the brown building. (other than the tunnel removal).
But please make this door a yellow gate, like in 1st? it looks bad IMO and really confused me at first.
I really want to see this map finished!
All I'm about to say is just my opinion, nothing more.
First point
First is my favorite point, because it has some great places to be in for both teams.
Here I show why I like this point. It has a great anti-spawncamp mechanism- Red can't constantly attack BLU, they can't go through the 1-way yellow door, they can't go that easily through the dropdown. Red has the brown building behind the camera in the pic (not shown) and the dev building with the window, as defense points. Blu has great sightlines into them, but RED doesn't have that good sightlines into BLU places. If BLU has to abort a capture attempt, they can duck behind the crates into the lowered area at the bottom of the pic, and hide there (RED can't get them from the dev building).
I think RED might need a slight advantage for the dev building, I suggest to make the health in there a medium health.
2nd point
I didn't get to be on the 2nd point, not as defense not as offence, so I can't leave valueable specific feedback on it. BLU simply cap it too fast. So make it easier to defend and longer cap time, maybe?
3rd point
This point is good, but it suffers from a major problem- too easy to defend. It seems like you tried to solve this in previous versions, by adding flanks. 3rd point has lots and lots of flanks, and it can be quite overwhelming at first, kind of like the 4th cp of pl_upward. I sometimes still find in upward a a new flank route I never saw before.
While exploring new flanks is fun, (and upward is my favorite pl map) it is still quite problematic for RED. RED doesn't know where BLU will come from, so they block the only place they know for sure BLU will pass through- the CP itself. And that only makes the problem worse- RED's defense is not spread around- it is focused on the point.
BLU has a ridiculous advantage of 5 entrances, 2 higherground attacking positions, 2 one way entrances directly into RED defense spots (1 way door in brown building and dropdown in dev building), and another complete flank around the whole thing (the tunnel) YET STILL IT'S NOT ENOUGH!!!
First- I think you need to reduce the flanks amount, and try to solve this by weakening RED, not strengthening BLU.
IMO it might be better to remove path no. 3 or path no. 2. If not, it might be better to completely change off the way the paths work. I think your last is similar to snakewater's last, because both have a leftmost high exit (snakewater's "dropdown" is your's "5"). maybe you should refer to that if you decide on remaking it.
And I also think that you should remove the tunnel. I know it's cool. But is doesn't help BLU, and I don't think RED needs it either. It just adds to the huge number of passages in 3rd cp.
3rd cp has 2 buildings to it's sides. The interesting thing about those buildings is that they are shared between the 2 teams. RED controls half of each building and BLU control the other half.
I think that is a great chance to strengthen BLU without adding flanks. You can make the buildings better for BLU, and weaken RED's sentry spots in them.
I'll start with the white dev textured building.
Here's my suggestion:
Better for BLU, and less useful as a RED sentry nest or a defense position
I don't have any idea atm for the brown building. (other than the tunnel removal).
But please make this door a yellow gate, like in 1st? it looks bad IMO and really confused me at first.
I really want to see this map finished!
Thank you, I've been sat on A13B for a few days because I feel like it's nearing the point of beta and needs all these things ironing out (such as what you've suggested) so I'm focusing more on these than my usual quick fix approach.
My plans for A14 separate to your comments:
- Another forward spawn for RED after A is capped, to allow them to flow on to B *or* no forward spawns for RED, but respawn times adjusted to make reaching A the same time and reaching B faster than current
- A fix for the horrible sightline from the left route into C over the CP to RED spawn
- The fence on the stairway at the cliffside being turned into a doorway that is only open after B is capped so BLU can get around that way better (rather than taking the entire stairway and walking back in the other direction)
- Fixes for the craze that would be the new C point (it was expected for it to need at least one major overhaul as it was only added in somewhere around 2-3 versions ago)
And counters/my thoughts on your comments:
- I like your idea for the A point, I haven't felt much of an issue with it (besides the sightline allowing BLU to snipe from inside the spawn room which will also be fixed). I might however "transfer" health, by lowering one of the other packs as well as upgrading the dev shed one, but I'm not 100% sure.
- I've already addressed my plans for B above, but to reiterate I plan to adjust RED's flow by either having RED a new forward spawn for B, or by having no forward spawns altogether and faster respawns (meaning after A is capped, REDs are still around and can easily be retreating to B if they did not reach A)
- C is the interesting one now. Firstly, I am going to cut out route #3 in your picture, and possibly replace it with a route allowing BLU to switch between sides (as I think there may be a grouping issue for BLU attacking C
- I definitely like your idea for a doorway out to the CP too, and I think I may try that out
- I agree a nerf to some of these positions is necessary, I'll apply the change to the corner doorway you suggested and possibly do something about the roof position behind the fence (not sure what)
- I'll also be removing the sewer. It was a nice addition to the old C and stepped it in the right direction, but I don't think it works so much for the new one. If I add a new forward spawn for RED for them defending B, this is where it will reside at
Again, thank you for your suggestions. I've not "given up on this" (as I've not updated in around 4 or 5 days [which is a long time for me, considering this reached a13 in two~ weeks]), and I will be doing an A14 this weekend sometime.
A few people were also asking the status on Theo artpassing this or not. I can't speak for him entirely, but it sounds like Theo will play some part in this, whether it's art passing or not. I stated to him I'd like to have a go at artpassing this, but he did a great job of Maple Ridge (which of course is in a similar theme) and I'd love to see a CP map detailed in a similar light to that. I may of course just have a stab at artpassing this (when it reaches the time) and see how that turns out, and if it goes badly I'll let Theo decide if he wants to artpass the map.
Edit:
We are also looking for a modeler to make some new autumnal trees for both KotH Maple Ridge and CP Kombu. Should we use your model you'd also be credited in both maps and you will have the choice for your model to be included in the Autumnal Pack (which I swear I have plans to do more on) and if either map were to go in-game you would of course get cuts. Contact me on Steam if you have any interest.
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After a brief session I've managed to make a whole bunch of changes so far (more to come), including:
- Displacements on B point area
- New doorway to C on cliffside
- Removed a route into C to tighten things up
- Added a doorway down to C from the dropdown
- Closed off the sentry spot left (from BLU) of C a little
- Fixed up that one really crappy sightline over C
- The small health kit change taka suggested
As i said in the imp yesterday, i liked the gameplay on B and C, didn't get much playtime on A. My biggest problem right now is the HUGE amount of health kits. I first realized it when i got behind enemy lines while defending and got back from B to C over the left flank (the one next to the cliffs) as a pyro. While i was walking there, a minisentry at B was shooting at me for 80% of the time, but i was still able to survive easily because i literally was able to walk over 3 medium health kits while stll in the range of the minisentry. Same about C. There is a medium on the left building, a small one on the right, another medium in the glass house (which is like 3 seconds away from the first medium) etc. There weren't that many people on the server when we played the map, and most of the guys on the other team were better than me, but i still got along quite nicely because i remembered the health kit placement and was always feeling like i played a Pyro with 350HP.
Oh yeah, and the water texture seems to be missing.
Aside from that, good job!
Oh yeah, and the water texture seems to be missing.
Aside from that, good job!
