Is this too complicated - triple objective?

Discussion in 'Mapping Questions & Discussion' started by Aki, Jan 6, 2010.

  1. Aki

    Aki L4: Comfortable Member

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    I had an idea that instead of having repeat captures of a flag (usually 3) as a condition of victory each team needs to

    Capture the Intelligence from the enemy base
    Deliver a bomb to the enemy base
    Control a point at a neutral site between bases.

    Controlling the point opens additional, easier pathways to get to the enemy flag and the bunker that you deliver the bomb to.

    Thoughts?

    Teams can repeatedly capture the flag or deliver the bomb if they wish, but once they've done both AND control the point they win. If time runs out the team with the most flags captured wins, if this is a tie most bombs delivered wins, if this is a tie longest time of control over the point wins, if THAT's a tie (unlikely) the game is a stalemate.
     
  2. J4CK8

    J4CK8 L11: Posh Member

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    The hard part is getting it to all show on the HUD. I did a little experiment with my map koth_optimum where capping the intel would reduce your teams timer by a minute or so, and the koth timer was about 7 minutes. It wasn't a brilliant layout to be hoenst so it didn't work out too well but the gamemode worked. However showing a payload HUD on screen too would be quite dificult and probably confuse players a bit.
     
  3. Excalibuur

    Excalibuur L2: Junior Member

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    mabey do it in stages?

    stage 1 push the cart, stage 2 run intel into enemy base, stage 3 cap a point?


    Excal
     
  4. Aki

    Aki L4: Comfortable Member

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    No, not in stages. The overall map is similar to two fort. The control point would be in the center of the stage so it would be hard to miss the control point (and it's status) while running flags. You basically have 2 flags that need to be ran, though you can repeatedly run one or the other if you want.

    The control point is just a throw in that opens paths. It shouldn't need a HUD element since avoiding it while running the flag is difficult. As for the flags, I think the default is for the HUD to point at the flag your team controls that is closest to you, which is fine.
     
  5. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    The point with the HUD is that it is decided once, and you cannot change it during the match, and CTF without compasses or payload without a track hud are both lame.
     
  6. Aki

    Aki L4: Comfortable Member

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    No, not a bomb in the style of payload - Hell no. (I hate payload maps).

    The "bomb" is just another flag. So you have a capture the flag map with two flags. One flag is normal, it starts in the enemy base and you have to go get it. The other flag starts in YOUR base and you have to deliver it to a capture zone in the enemy base. I'll change up the world model so that it is visually different from the traditional "intel" flag - but at the end of the day it's just a flag.

    The HUD of CTF is already designed to deal with multiple flags from what I understand of the docs - it just points you to the closest flag. Or maybe it spawns multiple arrows on the dial - I dunno for sure but I guess I'll find out if I set it up.

    The capture point could use a KoTH style HUD since that's at the top of the screen and doesn't overlap with the CTF HUD. If it's not possible to have a HUD for the control point that would be fine though I think. If necessary to reduce complexity and confusion I could set it up so the capture of the point is merely optional (but useful since it makes capturing flags easier to do).

    EDIT: Another thought, just allow victory after X flag caps. The fact that there are 2 flags and 2 capture zones for each team should help loosen up the defenders a bit since they need to cover 2 points. While stylistically it would be nice to require each flag be capped once it might be more trouble than it's worth.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  7. Undies

    Undies L1: Registered

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    EDIT: After re-re-reading your post, now I am just confused
    you want 4 flags on the HUD, 2 CPs and KotH timers?

    no ... just no
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  8. Locutus

    Locutus L2: Junior Member

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    I'm pretty sure he means 4.

    The problem with this is that once you deliver the bomb, you can then run back with the flag killing two birds with one stone which is WAY too easy for a TF2 game-mode.
     
  9. Aki

    Aki L4: Comfortable Member

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    That's dependent on the layout of the map now isn't it?

    Undies> No - you are confused.

    There is one and only one control point. It starts neutral and is at the map center.

    There is one normal "intelligence" flag for each team. It starts in the enemy base and must be taken to a capture zone in your base.

    There is one new "bomb" flag for each team, but it isn't a payload cart bomb - don't confuse them. I hate payload. I'll probably never make a payload map. This flag (and to the game engine it is still just a flag) starts in your base and must be taken to a capture zone in the enemy base.

    The capture zone for the bomb is not near the location of the intelligence. There wouldn't be a point to this if they where close.

    I'm trending towards just allowing the game to be one by the first team to 3 flag captures, either flag. The control point is only relevant insofar as when you hold it then new attack paths are opened for your team to the enemy base (and at the same time their symmetrical counterparts for your own base become closed).

    The map is structurally similar to 2fort. New players can follow the path they know to the traditional flag. If they explore they'll find the new "bomb" flag and it's capture point is in the symmetrical equivalent area of the enemy base. The control point is in the center of the map, hard to miss while going to and from each base.

    So there would be only 1 HUD. When the control point is captured by the enemy warning strobe lights throughout the base will activated. The one HUD has 2 arrows on each dial pointing at each flag (I believe this is how it's programmed to behave anyway).
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  10. Mick-a-nator

    aa Mick-a-nator

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    Basically, choose a game mode and make it work well. Don't try and fuse game modes unless you are sure they are clear and easy to combine (and visible on 1 HUD). The only 2 I have seen work are A/D ctf, but that was an old one brought back to life and ctf tc (tc is good to mix because its just a multi-stage but each stage is chosen randomly depending on areas controlled). even some original creations or just "enhancements" don't always work.

    EDIT: Even just having a cp open an alt route to the intel may be too confusing. I've played a map like that before and it just got a bit too confusing, trying to cap the intel, cap the point, and make sure you didn't get raped whilst doing one of them.

    Try working on a ctf, arena or koth. Then go onto things like pl and cp until you get an understanding of the perks/limitations of the game. Only then do I suggest you create some hybrid maps.

    Aaand that was WAY more than I was going to write... meh...
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  11. Undies

    Undies L1: Registered

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    I have created CP/CTF :bored: eots_legokart
    It may be possible to mash all this together into one map, but I speak for myself when I say it is anything but recommended. My map should be a decent enough example of why it doesn't work.
    95% of the time people don't read the intro text to understand a custom map, and then 30% will ask how the hell people are capping flags on a CP looking map (even though there is a compass on the HUD, which only appears like 90seconds after spawn). etc, etc, etc... /rant

    if you are going to go through with this, simplify it. Make one team attack (to bomb and steal intel) and the other defends. The CP is just a bit much imho.
     
  12. megawac

    megawac L4: Comfortable Member

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    Id suggest maybe limiting yourself to 2 flag and the koth... Thats enough imo.

    Layout make it so you have to jump down into some like "strategic" hole like aurura, which caps the intel and triggers an explosion.

    The flags may not work well because there are two spots on hud for flags.
     
  13. A Boojum Snark

    aa A Boojum Snark Toraipoddodezain Mazahabado

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    I think the thread has answered itself. "is this too complicated?" There wouldn't be this much discussion about it if it wasn't :)
     
  14. Aki

    Aki L4: Comfortable Member

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    Indeed.

    I still might do a double flag arrangement, but no cp mix in. The reason for 2 flags is that I'm building the map with 34 players in mind. With one flag roughly 3 quarters of each team tends to go off and do something unrelated to the goal, or worse you get super turtle-ville in the intel room.

    By creating two flags the defenders have to spread out, defending their intel flag and the capture zone of the enemy's "bomb" flag. To keep things simple X captures (set by the map admin) is sufficient for victory.

    Another idea is to create a room reasonably close to the intel of each base that has a resupply locker that EITHER team can use and that is relatively easy to defend. The idea here is if the team lets the enemy get an engie and teleporter into that room, they're in deep, deep trouble. While they don't have to explicitly defend that room, they'd be wise to.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010
  15. Zee

    Zee L1: Registered

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    There are steps to easily accomplish this without confusing the player. I was working on a siege map, but because of various things, I put it on hold for now. Anyway here's what you should do.

    Use the tf_logic_hybrid_ctf_cp entry. This allows for a compass and cp points to be shown. This also tells the game not to use the server's flag limit to end the game.

    Add some game_text_tf to baby step the way. Have to go off ever minute or so if it's telling people what to do. (add it to a logic timer or a trigger in the spawn that enables/disables.)

    An example would be, " Capture the flag!" And another "Rush and cap the CP!". Have the messages go off at that stage in the map.

    The map I made also had a bomb in it. I can show you what I did if need be.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2010