CP Imbricatus a5

[JeanPaul]

This is awesome because its what I have wanted (feedback wise) since I started posting again on this website. All of these points are fantastic too. I am going to specifically respond to each bit from everyone and post my solution to all these problems later today. I have a whole new spawn layout that should fix these.

All of this feedback is from a single test; twice as BLU and once as RED.

A is okay. I personally didn't use the far corner room thing as BLU, but that's probably because I played Scout for most of the map. I like the approach to it, there's good cover in the low ground which prevents spam from doing too much damage. As yyler pointed out during the test, there's no good place for a sentry, especially to defend A. The small platform off to the side of the point isn't completely covered, which makes it so much easier to snipe buildings with a rocket launcher. The first point in a 3CP shouldn't be as easy as 1-1 of a 3stage, and I think you've pulled that off well; I just think that sentries are useless here and throughout the rest of the map. I have this feeling that the captime for A should be decreased slightly, it feels like Gorge's first point. I think that you should simplify a bit of the geometry around BLU spawn though - the top of the third picture up there looks awesome with the bright sun and various equipment and then you look down to see the assloads of small slopes and silly extrusions. I know you're not looking for detailing feedback right now, but I think that you should consider the final product even as you do brushwork in an alpha.

Okay, I will lower that wall around the upper area next to A to make sentries a little better. I will also see what I can do be about sentries in the other areas of A. Honestly though, no one really put any sentries down near blue spawn of A so I would like to test this more. Ill see what I can do about simplifying the first area a little.

I absolutely hate RED's spawn for A. They spawn literally right behind it: during testing, seven BLU were on the point, about to cap, when all of RED respawned and obliterated the entire enemy team. This shouldn't happen. Also the platform outside of spawn is the only good sentry spot on the entire map, it's so easy to overlook once A is capped. Move the spawn further back and don't create sentry cubbies right outside.

Me too, its terrible, but I had to test to make sure. This is getting a big change, youll see further down in the post.

B is the worst point on the map imo. RED has literally no way to defend it: there is one way to defend the point (I know there's a ledge but I ignored that because the only person I saw up there was a BLU engie building minisentries), the windows above the deathpit are too exposed, and it gets rushed almost instantly after A every time. RED has some really long respawn times overall, I noticed. The only thing that saves RED is the ginormously long captimes, on both A and B. Make this one easier to defend IMO, that ledge would be perfect for a RED-only sentry spot.

B isnt only the worst, its just nothing. blue can cap it before any red players even get there. I am going to add cover to the area above the deathpit, I think I had that planned for alpha 3 but I forgot. I will also be removing the back entrance way for blue to this point to give it a little more of a choking point.

C sucks because there is a shitload of paths leading to and around it. As BLU I got to the point by blindly running forward; I don't think I actually memorised the layout (granted, this was two playthroughs). There are tunnels around it, above it, behind it, in front of it, through it, you get my point. Someone said they have no idea where BLU is comign from: that's because they're coming from literally everywhere and no exit is clearly marked. You compared this to Manor and Mountainlab, but those maps at least have clearly defined exits for BLU - they don't pop in and out of view everywhere. Also the top door was broken, which most likely put RED at a disadvantage. My main gripe with C is its stupidly short captime. You go from A, which takes an eternity, to B, which takes an eternity, and get to C, which caps in like seven seconds. The fact that BLU are pouring in from everywhere doesn't help to stop them from flooding the point with sheer numbers and explosive spam from up top. I also get the feeling that the top platform was too high up. And I think it'd be easier to defend if you removed the handrails around the point.

C is getting the most changes, just look at my solution at the end of the post. I will simplify the area and make sure you can more easily tell where players are coming from. Also I will make the cap time a little longer. I will also remove some sightlines as its a bit large in this area. Do you think I should remove those railings around the point? Maybe add a little housing for the point? I dont know what do you guys think?

I suggest you read the whole wall of text, even though I haven't played TF2 in months and don't recognise most of the map from the above pics - you can always pull something useful out of any kind of feedback. Keep in mind that others may (do) have different expectations from maps; try to combine their opinions with yours or ask why they think what they do.

I haven't written feedback this long in a while, you're welcome.

Thanks brah.

I played few round with bots.

At first I was totally confused. The layout is kinda wonky so it takes time to memorize it.
You should add more hints as what is game area and what is not.

Will do

In some parts of the map there were ledges high above in some very peculiar places that just caught me off guard. Minisentries will be very irritating because of these ledges.

Ill see what I can do. Keep in mind minisentries are annoying as piss regardless of the map

The lastpoint lacked focus, but was also the funniest point to play.

Yup, Ill have to focus it a little more.

The geometry reminds me of bad minecraft map seeds. The geometry doesn't make much sense. I have no problem with the angles, but random hanging pieces of building, particularly as seen in http://i.imgur.com/AWKRM.jpg make me think this map passed through a black hole and was reassmbled in a "daft" and "impractical" universe.

I guess part of the problem is also that there doesn't seem to be a particular theme to the map. It's not desert or alpine, it's not snowy or swamp. The closest it is is industrial but it's so ambiguous it's like a sandwhich with the thinnest layer of jam ever spread on a slice of bread. A map doesn't need to be mid-beta for players to understand the environment they're in is either a steel mill, a dockyard, and train depot, etc.

Choose a theme, look up some reference material and work from that. TF2 may be silly, but it's not that silly.

This is fair and not fair. Its an alpha. The thematic ideas I have are in my head so wait till beta to let me know what you think about this.

______________________________________________________________

Okay so here are my solutions for alpha 4, tell me what you guys think!

Alpha 3 stage 1.

Problems:
-shit red spawn
-maybe a little open for sentries to be effective

Alpha 3 stage 2

Problems:
-shit red spawn
-some extraneous paths
-a little large in parts

Alpha 3 stage 3

Problems:
-complex paths to get to final point
-kind of a long walk for blue, resulting in less action at the point
-not super readable from red's standpoint

The solutions
Alpha 4 stage 1

Fixes:
-red doesnt spawn on top of A and now have to go up a hill to get to A, so if A is being capped by a large part of the team, red's best option is to start defense on B

Alpha 4 stage 2

Fixes:
-red will now be immediately near B
-blue spawns and runs down a hill and underneath red spawn and is immediately at B
-more cohesive so players know where blue and red are coming from

Alpha 4 stage 3

Fixes:
-blu has now captured B and therefore doesnt need to go down a hill again and instead just cuts right over to C
-blue has a lot shorter of a walk
-C will be more easily readable

Whole map:
-red now has only one spawn and upon the start of the round will have large vista views of both B and C via one way windows. Dont worry, they wont both be visible at the same time, Ive got things to optimize you know!
-going to condense certain areas a little and maybe add some more cover to make sentries a little more effective. I still want to test sentries more though.
-improving player direction by adding some signs and shit

So, what do you guys think?

 

[JeanPaul]

Alpha 4

First, two images of the new red spawn. I managed to make it one room and that makes me proud of myself

And now the map. Holy jesus this was a massive amount of work.

Download:

http://jeanpaultron.com/maps/cp_imbricatus_a4.zip

 

[tyler]

Jesus Christ

 

[Sergis]

now thats a welcome break from the endless barns and two story factories

 

[Pocket]

Holy jesus this was a massive amount of work.

You don't say. :O

 

[GPuzzle]

My computer would break if I tought of doing something like this map.

 

[Eyce]

That's it, 3Dnj, now JeanPaul.

I'm just going to change my name to something of French origin and reap the benefits.

 

[Jyyst]

Sweet! Hopefully it plays as well as it looks

 

[Tarry H Sruman]

dat architecture

 

[nightwatch]

I feel like you die too soon when you fall in the pit at C ... is it possible to lower the death line a bit without letting players stand on funny pipes and rocket jump back out?

 

[ScorpioUprising]

That geometry is amazing. However, you should probably look at how you use your textures, especially on the brick sections. One of the things that is quite common on TF2 maps is for lower sections using a different texture than higher up areas, making things look distinct between higher and lower paths. Too many of your areas look a bit too similar to one another.

 

[JeanPaul]

Thanks everyone

I feel like you die too soon when you fall in the pit at C ... is it possible to lower the death line a bit without letting players stand on funny pipes and rocket jump back out?

And yes, its currently that high to prevent standing on stuff near the edges. I could probably move it down no problem though. But I mean if you fall down there really is no saving yourself so what does it matter when you die?

Also, scorpio, Its still an alpha!

Also try it out ingame first because everything is a lot larger than it looks in the screenshots.

 

[RaVaGe]

Amazing !

But this corridor seems really too wide , try to cut this part and add some detail covers wich could be helpfull to cut those sightlines

 

[JeanPaul]

Oh yeah I will be adding a little more cover in there later, I just wanted to test the layout for now. It might be a tad sight-line heavy in there right now.

Also I am going to keep it the current width because it is only 384 units wide.

 

[nightwatch]

Thanks everyone



And yes, its currently that high to prevent standing on stuff near the edges. I could probably move it down no problem though. But I mean if you fall down there really is no saving yourself so what does it matter when you die?

It matters to me at least because I feel cheated when I die like that, if I thought I could have escaped, even if it was actually impossible. Also, it's possible that scouts could make it out, especially running force a nature or atomizer or both. Also demommen with sticky launchers ...?


If it was me I'd put angled clip brushes over the props too steep to stand on and make the death zone a bit lower. But at this stage it probably doesn't mmatter much.

 

[JeanPaul]

fun fun

My new c plays well I think

 

[Sel]

nice hl2 map jp ))))))))))))))

 

[Tarry H Sruman]

needs to be more like badlands

 

[tyler]

the transition from A to B is a mess. more interesting and tighter gameplay, but hard to navigate and orient yourself in.

firstly,

this is a big problem imo.

second, you've done a great job reducing the amount of waste in the routes to c. unfortunately, it's now very hard to attack because there's one long path that isnt spammable, and a short path that is. the long path has a decent flank at the end, but one sentry can watch the entrance to that flank and the other hallway at the same time.

this is a nightmare; sentries peck you through the slits and you cant fire back because there's so much visual noise around C, you just cant pick them out

this is the only safe spot in that hallway, it's tiny, it's useless.

similarly this is tiny

the small areas mean range of movement is almost null and void, splash damage is king (or would be, if there werent so many edges that it breaks on) and fragile classes are close to useless.

this is definitely the best c you've made so far, but it brings with it some substantial issues. still, i'm having fun on it finally.

a seems better balanced than a3, so does b. really like the changes there (other than the transition as i said).

one thing im worried about is what happens when you actually fully detail this--there's already so much going on, when you add trims, overlays and detail props it's going to be so noisy i wont know what to do.

 

[phi]

In the most recent impromptu I really felt like this was the best version yet.
The layout was pretty unique and refreshing from the same old layouts that some other maps give.
However, as stated above, there were a few problems in the map overall...

A, in general, worked alright and was the most straightforward point. It had no overpowered sentry spots and during the test it managed to get capped every time (which I think tends to be a good thing).

The transition from A to B was odd. There were two locations, one for the attacking team, one for the defending team where it was near impossible to break up anything that was perched up there. I don't have a screenshot but for the attacking team it was that high-up balcony that could only be accessed through a long stairwell (which is pretty drastic of a height advantage).
I don't like the fact that you practically have no way of dealing with sentries up on the ledge next to the high balcony, as during the test two engies and a demo camped up there and managed to lock out any push completely. When there were no sentries up there, B was fairly alright of a push and was managed to get capped every time but one.

C is where it gets rough. I think, just like yyler, that it is by far your best C yet - but it has a ways to go before it is balanced. Personally, the two routes into the room are too little, and the flak that the defending team can generate into the offense is too much. The point itself is surrounded by so much visual noise that it really distracts the eye and makes the point that much harder to attack. The main flank, as mentioned by yyler, has too many open windows in it, and is practically impossible to push through due to the high level of vulnerability. The rafters were also a mess, there was a couple times where there were mini sentries up on those that shot me down and I couldn't fire back because I didn't know where they were. I can't imagine what would happen if three or four engies just camped in there with their sentries hidden up in the rafters.
The only really useful spot to hold is the big staircase starting from the main entrance, I think that's a key area since it gives height advantage and can lock out the main door. If the attacking team takes it then they're pretty well guaranteed the round.

All in all, a really refreshing take with the layout - although I feel like vertical combat is something not used very much in TF2 and should be used with care, though. I feel like removal of visual clutter from the points would benefit the map (especially C) and most of the detailing so far is pretty neat. It is in alpha so I won't say much about it but keep in mind you want to create a sense of location with a map and create a sense of it fulfilling some purpose, not just simply looking neat. Eventually I hope you open up the out-of-bounds areas a bit more and create a nifty 3d-skybox to go with the detailing, it would make the map feel a lot nicer. Take that with a grain of salt though since you shouldn't be entirely focusing on aesthetics right now and should probably focus more on ironing out the bugs in your layout.

Sorry for the block of text but I really think that this could become a *really* neat map if executed correctly; I look forward to playing it whenever the next iteration comes out.